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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

It's who you know, not what you know

133 replies

mirrormirror5 · 06/12/2024 07:49

Wanted to get peoples thoughts on this.

I was reflecting the other morning on my career path and it saddened me somewhat.

I grew up as an academically gifted working class girl from a single parent household. No dad around whatsoever. I always had the somewhat naive belief that you could be anything you wanted to, if you worked hard and put your mind to it.

Fast forward to my university years, I excelled in a subject that I was very passionate about but I've since learnt is seen as a 'posh persons subject'. Note the very well to do people on my course...
I just didn't understand social hierarchy at that age and always believed I was worthy to be in the room.

I had a PT job all through uni and saved enough so I could do a series of highly coveted (unpaid) internships in London. I've always supported myself financially.

Then it all starts to go a bit tits up.

Great feedback but overlooked for 'friends of a friends' child at every interview opportunity. Applying for advertised roles where they always already had someone in mind, usually an old school friend etc.

It got to a point where the debt from trying was too much and I took a well paid graduate job in a relatively boring industry and left my passion behind. I'm still in that industry years later and I feel a bit sore about the whole thing

I understand that connections are important in all walks of life and at some point, most people benefit from knowing someone and getting a foot in the door. I'm also not deluded to think I would be successful for every interview, but this really was getting ridiculous.

But AIBU to believe that certain opportunities are closed to WC young people, regardless of their abilities and work ethic?

My husband and I are passionate about state schooling for future children but part of me thinks about the opportunities they might get through private education and making 'the right' connections. I guess everyone makes the most of the opportunities they've got.

OP posts:
Staringatthemoon · 07/12/2024 00:45

Ok, then I think he needs to get any experience in a library (even volunteering on a Saturday for a few hours) whilst he works in a supermarket, etc. - just to prove he understands circulation, etc. Then from there I would suggest he reads up on digital humanities as tech skills are very valuable in the library sector. I’d set up a little webpage or site on a rare book or digitise (basically high quality scan with lots of metadata) an old book he finds interesting from a secondhand shop and focus on the material aspects. There is a language called TEI using for digitizing artefacts (he also needs to learn MARC and XML) and if he uses this on a site he will be incredibly useful to an academic library ( sounds like he wants to be a Research Librarian? ) If he is interested in university work, he needs to know about Open Access and the academic publishing landscape.

Once he does this kind of digital project, and perhaps a few more so that he has a portfolio ( for ideas look at the British Library data site as they have made their datasets available on their site for anyone to use and they used to do meetups with BL staff in London he could attend ( fairly informal events). He could then submit his portfolio to an organisation offering to do some work that he then adds to his CV. With high end tech skills and a reference or name on his CV from somewhere like a university, along with work experience in a real library and the initiative and confidence to put something online, he makes a good candidate but this is often the minimum some candidates have.

If I think of anything else, i’ll add it later.

Staringatthemoon · 07/12/2024 00:56

Btw, cultural capital is a real factor but its only one of many. You may not think you have it to give him but he is being judged by what he brings - cultural capital does not compete well with real skills and knowledge. He may have to gain those in the commercial sector ( Information Officer/Manager) and do the books as a hobby until he can shift over. Its really important people focus on the skills they need and not what they don't have because ultimately many privileged people also have both types of skills - he needs to find out what he can offer that is unique and beneficial to an organisation and he is in a good position to explore and develop that now.

Staringatthemoon · 07/12/2024 01:08

Ok, and lastly rare books is about buyers sellers and collections. Start looking at Abebooks for prices, learn about collections, understand what books are valuable and why - whats the equivalent of the Old Masters in books that sets the market.

Rare books is a business first. Working in the rare books in museum may not be what he thinks its about - he needs to start understanding the collections that are out there and why they were collected. Some basic stuff on rare book club conservation, too (basically cleaning and rebounding - little else is really done with them). I’ve been collecting and buying books since I was very young - does he know the famous European sellers in each city? Visit them, get talking to them (about books, not jobs). He’s got to be someone they can trust is a fellow bookworm.

Papayaandlime · 07/12/2024 01:27

I was discussing this subject with my dh earlier tonight funnily enough.

We are in our early sixties, benefited from excellent grammar school education, and although nowhere near rich, we are financially stable.

During the nineties in London, we felt positive, as if we had near enough the same opportunities as everyone else, even though we were, and remain, firmly lower middle class. The rich Sloane Ranger types we had encountered at university seemed to have gone in to hiding.

But even during that period we both had incidents in our careers where we were “overtaken” by people with “old money” family and professional connections. And that should have been a red flag!

In both of these situations, we were the obvious candidates for the next career rung up, and someone who was an offspring of the great and good, got the job. Despite that, we both got where we wanted, but it took longer in my case, and in dh’s case he took a career deviation which fortunately turned out well.

So generally in the 90s we felt optimistic about the world. There were far more women in the work place. People seemed to have hope that we could save the planet. Society was becoming more diverse. Access to the internet democratised knowledge and people could seemingly get further on merit alone.

But in the past twenty years or so while we were busy raising a family, it’s like the world has gone backwards while we weren’t paying attention! The top echelons are richer and more powerful than ever before, the division between rich and poor is greater, nepotism is rife, misogyny has increased, the planet is wrecked. And blow me, people are once again overtly signalling that they are part of the “club”. Even frilly collars and gilets are back in fashion fhs!

With more experience of life, we have grown much more aware of the huge advantages that a British public school education brings. Not so much in the academic sphere, but in who you know. And we feel rather foolish that we weren’t aware of this all along!

We’ve become much more conscious that lying beneath overt social interactions, there is an extensive hidden layer of unspoken rules and unacknowledged privilege. It’s taken a lifetime to fully realise the extent of it. And despite economic strictures, the “club” seems stronger than ever.

I worked in the arts and so many introductions started with “oh are you related to a and b” or “do you know the so-and -sos” and when you had to admit that you weren’t related or connected in any way, you were quietly dropped . As mentioned, it didn’t appear to damage our career trajectories too drastically, but it is obvious looking back that it did change them, and it was really confusing at the time. Like you were knocking on an invisible door.

Obviously, those who benefit from this hugely privileged and beneficial establishment “cushion” have fought and still fight to maintain it. And it’s for this reason we are really worried for our dcs and their futures.

Everything seems much harder and more competitive now but also more “closed”. The housing situation seems impossible. And many graduate jobs seem to be obtained through family connections alone. There are more nepo babies in the arts than ever before! In summary, the British class system with all of its fundamental injustices, is alive and extremely well. The same old establishment figures who had power and wealth in the eighties and nineties have hung on to it and trebled it!

I hope and pray that somehow the young can do a better job than we did of making society a fairer place in which to live. I fear we have failed them miserably.

Comtesse · 07/12/2024 01:47

I think that class bias really matters for law, the judicial system, politics etc - because of the impact on others / wider society.

But I do have limited sympathy for art historians I’m really sorry - OP has personally lost out for sure, but the macro impacts are more limited.

Friday54 · 07/12/2024 11:32

Papayaandlime, yours is a really excellent post. My experiences chime with this. Also I would add that I think classism seems more acceptable in the UK that other, also unacceptable "isms", ageism etc.

There can be a sort of apathy with it 'its just the way it is, thats why we sent our children to a fee paying school' etc.

I too hope this invisible barrier to better opportunities does become more obvious to people. But as you say, those with the access to this privilege, fight hard to normalise and protect it.

Papayaandlime · 08/12/2024 18:38

Friday54 · 07/12/2024 11:32

Papayaandlime, yours is a really excellent post. My experiences chime with this. Also I would add that I think classism seems more acceptable in the UK that other, also unacceptable "isms", ageism etc.

There can be a sort of apathy with it 'its just the way it is, thats why we sent our children to a fee paying school' etc.

I too hope this invisible barrier to better opportunities does become more obvious to people. But as you say, those with the access to this privilege, fight hard to normalise and protect it.

I couldn't agree more about apathy. And of course our political leaders have let us down badly. Absolutely no long term vision.

GRex · 09/12/2024 08:12

Papayaandlime · 08/12/2024 18:38

I couldn't agree more about apathy. And of course our political leaders have let us down badly. Absolutely no long term vision.

Edited

My reaction is strong disagreement to be honest. This doesn't happen in the STEM fields, where recruitnent is merit based and referrals are almost entirely linked to people others have worked with before. There's little money in arts roles, because they are low value. If there is nepotism in who can hang pictures on walls or value a book, then of course that makes some shrug apathetically, because it's just not a role of great value to the country or way or the other where it . People genuinely don't do that same apathetic shrug when it's roles that matter to safety or the overall economy like scientist, engineer, medic, finance etc. It's down to those who are interested in the field to sort this out, not to pretend it's affecting every industry, nor look wildly around for someone else to step in. If you feel it matters (and poorer museum exhibits was the one good example), then prove why it matters by creating presentations that really show new vision and you'll find the issue goes away.

AlertCat · 09/12/2024 08:26

People genuinely don't do that same apathetic shrug when it's roles that matter to safety or the overall economy like scientist, engineer, medic, finance etc.

I think they do. Medicine has for so long been populated by the wealthy and male- there was a brief window when it opened up, but since 2010 it’s largely back to being those who can afford the fees for the length of the course, and then to fund their own CPD and exams for another 10-20 years before getting to consultant level.

And of course politicians, the most recent batch from Eton, Dulwich, Winchester etc has been disastrous for the country and yet there’s very little consequence for them personally or even any widespread commentary about it. It’s been a national shrug.

mirrormirror5 · 09/12/2024 08:31

*If there is nepotism in who can hang pictures on walls or value a book, then of course that makes some shrug apathetically, because it's just not a role of great value to the country
*
I agree that there is a spectrum when it comes to what value roles add to society, but I think this assessment massively underestimates the importance of the arts, humanities and academic study and of course, museums. We are so fortunate to have free access to world leading museums and art institutions in this country, which also act as educational centres. Historians and curators are specialists who make their subject matter accessible to the masses. Access to history = a better understanding of the world around us today, from every POV including economical, scientific and political

OP posts:
GRex · 09/12/2024 10:57

mirrormirror5 · 09/12/2024 08:31

*If there is nepotism in who can hang pictures on walls or value a book, then of course that makes some shrug apathetically, because it's just not a role of great value to the country
*
I agree that there is a spectrum when it comes to what value roles add to society, but I think this assessment massively underestimates the importance of the arts, humanities and academic study and of course, museums. We are so fortunate to have free access to world leading museums and art institutions in this country, which also act as educational centres. Historians and curators are specialists who make their subject matter accessible to the masses. Access to history = a better understanding of the world around us today, from every POV including economical, scientific and political

Sure it's important. But for your concern to be valid we need to assume that the person hired is going to be much worse at doing that job than the person not hired. Some people are genuinely better than others at certain roles; whoever designed Discover Children's Story centre, whoever organises events at Hampton Court Palace, and various amazing small museums around the country showing amazing playable animatronics, or everything about vehicles that bring engineering to life. Do we know that those people happened to get in on merit while V&A tedium is run by someone who got in via nepotism? Genuine question, maybe you can make me bothered if so.

FelixtheAardvark · 09/12/2024 11:12

Agree 100% OP. My DS is in a similar position to you.

stayathomer · 09/12/2024 11:19

I think it’s only in a limited number of career paths and also depends what you see as successful- contacts are more extreme upper end and to be honest then you’re heading into ‘not the real world’ territory- was involved in a court case a few years ago and the way they treated the less high up staff there was disgusting, scary to think people can go home at night and sleep having ordered people around and calling them ‘stupid’ and ‘idiot’ to their face!

TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack · 09/12/2024 11:22

Re the point of view that "it doesn't matter as much when it's work that's perceived as being of low value" there was an interesting Freakonomics podcast in a similar vein, which was "is it okay for restaurants to racially profile their employees?" so are Indian restaurants ok to only employ Indian staff for example and the answer was no, not really but the conclusion was that nobody is going to do anything about it because it's low paid work and people aren't scrambling for the jobs anyway. So maybe similar applies to art history?

Is It Okay for Restaurants to Racially Profile Their Employees? - Freakonomics

Is It Okay for Restaurants to Racially Profile Their Employees? - Freakonomics

Is It Okay for Restaurants to Racially Profile Their Employees? - Freakonomics

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/is-it-okay-for-restaurants-to-racially-profile-their-employees/

Friday54 · 09/12/2024 19:19

GRex, I think the issue is aiming for access to opportunities in all fields of work, no matter what social barriers exist and I think its well established they do exist.

Also 'who does the job best", can be open to interpretation and is perhaps another way of making class bias invisible.

I think this might be an issue for STEM too. This article from the guardian raises some interesting questions about that.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/07/the-science-behind-winning-nobel-prize-being-man-from-wealthy-family-torsten-bell

GRex · 09/12/2024 20:16

Friday54 · 09/12/2024 19:19

GRex, I think the issue is aiming for access to opportunities in all fields of work, no matter what social barriers exist and I think its well established they do exist.

Also 'who does the job best", can be open to interpretation and is perhaps another way of making class bias invisible.

I think this might be an issue for STEM too. This article from the guardian raises some interesting questions about that.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/07/the-science-behind-winning-nobel-prize-being-man-from-wealthy-family-torsten-bell

I have a LOT of issues with that report. Percentages taken since 1901, failure to take into account the differences in winning prizes versus commercial success, badly chosen sources on genetic intellect impacts, etc. If we look at people like Ramanujan,, to see how he fought his way through, by far the greatest barrier was the formal educational links meaning his terminology and structure didn't meet expected standards, rather than anything to do with his background. In fact, how on earth can anybody have written such a paper without mentioning Ramanujan anyway, who every university maths student learns about?

squirrelnutcartel · 09/12/2024 20:28

Ds1 went to an ordinary comprehensive school in a wc area, but got a place at Oxford and got a First in PPE. He then went and did a Masters in a related subject and got a Merit. He's been a member of the Labour Party since pussy was a cat and really wanted to go into politics. He got a job in London and is doing well, been promoted, is well regarded, good reputation etc. He did some volunteering with the Labour Party, went to meetings etc. He applied for quite a few parliamentary assistant jobs when they won the election and didn't even receive a reply. He has a wc background, there's no airs and graces about him. He's hardworking and has integrity. He would be perfect for such a role, but it's not going to happen because he comes from a far flung poor area and doesn't know anyone. Most of his friends at uni were the science crowd and he didn't put himself about enough even though he spoke at the Oxford Union etc. The right people aren't in the right jobs, no wonder the country's going to shit.

Papayaandlime · 09/12/2024 23:24

GRex · 09/12/2024 08:12

My reaction is strong disagreement to be honest. This doesn't happen in the STEM fields, where recruitnent is merit based and referrals are almost entirely linked to people others have worked with before. There's little money in arts roles, because they are low value. If there is nepotism in who can hang pictures on walls or value a book, then of course that makes some shrug apathetically, because it's just not a role of great value to the country or way or the other where it . People genuinely don't do that same apathetic shrug when it's roles that matter to safety or the overall economy like scientist, engineer, medic, finance etc. It's down to those who are interested in the field to sort this out, not to pretend it's affecting every industry, nor look wildly around for someone else to step in. If you feel it matters (and poorer museum exhibits was the one good example), then prove why it matters by creating presentations that really show new vision and you'll find the issue goes away.

And I strongly disagree in turn. So many things that make life worth living are strongly related to creativity and the arts. Architecture, design, fashion, music, the aesthetics of public spaces, film, literature, sculpture and fine art all have infinite value to humans and to our daily lives. And some of them are multi-million pound industries too.

Papayaandlime · 09/12/2024 23:39

GRex · 09/12/2024 08:12

My reaction is strong disagreement to be honest. This doesn't happen in the STEM fields, where recruitnent is merit based and referrals are almost entirely linked to people others have worked with before. There's little money in arts roles, because they are low value. If there is nepotism in who can hang pictures on walls or value a book, then of course that makes some shrug apathetically, because it's just not a role of great value to the country or way or the other where it . People genuinely don't do that same apathetic shrug when it's roles that matter to safety or the overall economy like scientist, engineer, medic, finance etc. It's down to those who are interested in the field to sort this out, not to pretend it's affecting every industry, nor look wildly around for someone else to step in. If you feel it matters (and poorer museum exhibits was the one good example), then prove why it matters by creating presentations that really show new vision and you'll find the issue goes away.

Also there is such a thing as invisible privilege that corrupts STEM professions too.

So many friends of my daughters looking for work experience at school, followed by internships post university, found them through family connections; whether they wanted to work in a medical research lab, an art gallery or in aeronautical engineering. And the family connections can kick in later and help with career advancement too.

And that's aside from the initial privilege of attending a school where STEM subjects are taught by adequately qualified competent teachers. My nephew's comprehensive school had vacancies for physics and chemistry teachers the entire time he was there!

CrackersAndMarmite · 09/12/2024 23:45

I don't think it's a school thing. It's a parent's thing!

I am from a single parent family. Lots of ACES in my background. Lots of poverty.

I went to private secondary school on a full fees bursary.

The people that came out of that school and progressed through their careers due to networking and connections, got those networks and connections from their parents. Not from school.

The kids like me from normal families haven't continued to mix with the elite. I'm a normal person living a normal life. My children are at state school. I've no idea how to network. I have no connections in the upper echelons of society. It's an alien world to me. I may have gone to the same school as some future politicians and ceo's, but they were just kids when I knew them. I didn't walk in their circles then and I don't now. My mum didn't mix with their parents when I was at school, other than to rsvp the occasional birthday party invite. We got on at school, but it was two parallel universes and the innocence of childhood which enabled friendships without the two worlds properly colliding.

It isn't the school. It's the parents that make the difference.

CosyLemur · 10/12/2024 06:58

I don't know - I know quite a few working class people who've broken the glass ceiling into professions. Mainly because of their personalities and that fact that networked well at uni. Didn't just socialise with people while they were at uni but got to know friends of friends etc.
I also know of a few people who should have been guaranteed work after uni fail to get anywhere.

ViaBlue · 10/12/2024 07:35

STEM is the key to career success for people who are outsiders in any given society.

This. UK is a land of opportunity if you have the right degree/skills. Degree doesn't even have to be from a UK uni.

Elektra1 · 10/12/2024 07:38

Depends by on your age OP, yes it did used to be like this but isn't really, any more. I work for a big law firm which only recruits from non-Russell Group universities and is very high up the Employers Social Mobility Index. Many law firms and other large corporates do blind recruitment, where name of candidate and uni are removed from applications.

Conversely, 15 years ago when I was applying for training contracts, some of my male peers got training contracts at magic circle firms after a bit of a chat about rugby by way of "interview". That would not happen now.

AwardGiselePelicotTheNobelPeacePrize · 10/12/2024 08:16

It is definitely a thing. The Arts Council put out a report on it a month or two back. There's also a great book on it called Culture is bad for you.