It's who you know, not what you know

[mirrormirror5]

Wanted to get peoples thoughts on this.

I was reflecting the other morning on my career path and it saddened me somewhat.

I grew up as an academically gifted working class girl from a single parent household. No dad around whatsoever. I always had the somewhat naive belief that you could be anything you wanted to, if you worked hard and put your mind to it.

Fast forward to my university years, I excelled in a subject that I was very passionate about but I've since learnt is seen as a 'posh persons subject'. Note the very well to do people on my course...
I just didn't understand social hierarchy at that age and always believed I was worthy to be in the room.

I had a PT job all through uni and saved enough so I could do a series of highly coveted (unpaid) internships in London. I've always supported myself financially.

Then it all starts to go a bit tits up.

Great feedback but overlooked for 'friends of a friends' child at every interview opportunity. Applying for advertised roles where they always already had someone in mind, usually an old school friend etc.

It got to a point where the debt from trying was too much and I took a well paid graduate job in a relatively boring industry and left my passion behind. I'm still in that industry years later and I feel a bit sore about the whole thing

I understand that connections are important in all walks of life and at some point, most people benefit from knowing someone and getting a foot in the door. I'm also not deluded to think I would be successful for every interview, but this really was getting ridiculous.

But AIBU to believe that certain opportunities are closed to WC young people, regardless of their abilities and work ethic?

My husband and I are passionate about state schooling for future children but part of me thinks about the opportunities they might get through private education and making 'the right' connections. I guess everyone makes the most of the opportunities they've got.

I believe it is, yes, on every level.
Most of my jobs I've got because I've had an 'in' - either a friend working there has tipped me off (call the manager, they're looking to hire and haven't advertised yet) or I've had an interview, told a current colleague and they say they know the hiring manager so have put in a word. We are not talking a high-stakes career here by any means btw! Random admin/comms type jobs in the main.
Same for my DCs and their p/t jobs as students. DS got his job as his friend's sister worked in the same place and he was round at his and mentioned it. DS then got DD a job there and DD went on to get another job in a similar place because they knew her previous manager.
Dh has just helped his relative with an 'in' at a a firm where his friend works as well. We don't know if he's got the job yet, only at CV stage, but it was for an opening that hadn't yet been advertised.
We don't mix in high circles, my DCs went to a state school, etc but DH knows a lot of different types of people through his work and I suppose I have quite a few contacts now with kids having been through school and working in a variety of places over the years with a friendly demeanour and good attitude!

Great feedback but overlooked for 'friends of a friends' child at every interview opportunity. Applying for advertised roles where they always already had someone in mind, usually an old school friend etc.

YANBU, but I'm curious as to how you know this ^^ ?

Did you always stay in contact with the interviewers/successful applicants?

Yep, this country is pretty much still run on nepotism, connections, and generational wealth.

I think it depends what are you work in - agree with the PP who said "hard" rather than "soft" subjects tend to be better. I work in pharma R&D as a chemist, and I've never felt that I suffered from being from a WC backgound - there are a lot of WC or sort of solid MC scientists, I dont stick out. DH is a patent attorney and he reckoned he suffered from not being in the old boys' network in the UK, but did fine where we now are in Switzerland. I would say in Germany/Switzerland there is much less of class system generally and certainly moving to a place with a different language means that people can't immediately tell your social class from your accent which helps a bit with out and out prejudice but as you said it's more about networking. In my industry the networking starts more towards the end of degree and start of PhD - nowadays there are a lot of degree placements and (paid) internships, temporary placements and so on, and the game is to meet and make friends with as many people as possible, be helpful, get a reputation for being good - and then drop a name or two when you get to interview. If you know someone (or you know someone who knows someone) in the organisation, hit them up with a quick email asking if there's anything they would suggest you research for the interview, that sort of thing. But I think the main thing is to find something where there is a lot of demand for people, and not a lot of supply - medical jobs are good for that because there's a limit on the number of students, things like law the bottleneck is in getting a training placement so it can be a bit harder and more of a risk as you have to complete the degree before you ever get taken on. My area I think is OK because the posh kids are not so fussed about working in a chemical plant in hard har and steelies all day, even if you do get a nice (ish) office as well!

I'd not say that "working class" background stopped you getting the job, I think bad timing did if anything. You'll always be over looked over a friend favour regardless of class or education. I say this as someone who was work privileged. I got my first job alone, min wage etc but at some point my family said I need to go into my field of study and they sorted it out.

I also know many people who got places through hard work, but if they had applied for my job my family got me they would definitely not have been chosen, even with more experience. God, I might regret writing this comment on mumsnet 😂 don't come for me please.

I do think you can make your own networks - my family only sorted my job because of their networking which they worked hard for!
Also I think many jobs in life are like this, or at least were in the past. If I recall my primary school lunch ladies were parents or grandparents of children too - must have got a good word in!

Absolutely it happens. It's not always about the best candidate. It's who has the best connections.

There are a lot of nepotism babies too.

In my last workplace, we had an absolutely useless manager. He was 15 years younger than the rest of them.

Someone pulled me aside and said "don't say anything negative about him to anyone. He's a grandson of someone very high up in the company".

This was a very large financial services company.

I think "class" definitely affects if you get a job.

People in the " upper middle class" only want to hang around other "upper middle class", as it makes them feel more elite.

Sorry that you have experienced that.

Personally, I've experienced and seen other things.

The fact you’ll always be overlooked for a friend favour is why class matters. Without friends in the right places, people don’t have any favours to call in and it’s likely working class people have a network that’s mainly in working class roles.

Fine if you want to be a tradesperson or dinner lady but much less useful if you fancy being a solicitor or doctor.

This is true. But we build our own networks of bright and well achieving working / middle class people. As a hiring manager, it’s the CVs of people who went to state school and didn’t benefit from upper class networks who catch my eye and go to the top of the pile.

Also agree that teaching children to be gregarious, articulate, interesting in conversation, able to tell a good story (which shows their intellect) in an engaging manner, goes a long way in prising open these largely closed career doors.

Also check out https://www.93percent.club/

You can't be in a role without the qualification!!! I couldn't get a role as a Dr in a specific hospital because I know the director 😂 I can't play dress up solicitor! That's insane.

You can have friends in the right places once you network or get your foot in, regardless of class. You can also network easily in London.

No you're dead right.
I used to be also be so niave and optimistic. My career tells the complete story and its not a good one.

I actually saw this play out in real time at public sector organisation, to work for it we all had background checks for a job paying not very much.

One day a "work experience" lad joins us. He's wearing a suit and tie and looks remarkably out of place. Speaks very well, understands Latin but is generally a bit dim and not all that switched on.

Over the course of a few weeks I find out he's the son of the Chief Execs PA (hence why he was allowed access without screening and vetting). One day in the canteen, in his suit and tie I watch one of the Directors strike up a very friendly jovial conversation with him. I've been working there for some time and not once has this man said a word to me, all of a sudden he's laughing with the work experience lad.

I overhear their conversation and they are discussing school. Turns out nice but dim work experience boy and Director both went to Harrow. The tie the lad was wearing was the school tie.

I left not long after but I since found out that work experience lad got an 'entry level' job as department head shortly after finishing his studies at the organisation.

That's what you pay for at private school. It's not superior education, it's the networking.

A lot depends on what career you want to
go into.

There are some careers where very few people have the intellectual capacity and qualifications to do the job. University maths researcher, big pharma research (you need a doctorate in chemistry), medicine in general etc.

The kind of jobs where the outcomes depend on the skills and knowledge of the person and this really can't be replaced by charm and interpersonal skills.

These jobs have much less class bias than other jobs.

One day a "work experience" lad joins us. He's wearing a suit and tie and looks remarkably out of place. Speaks very well, understands Latin but is generally a bit dim and not all that switched on.

You are literally describing ‘Tim nice but dim’ 😂

I’m well aware you can’t just decide to be a dr or solicitor, there’s no need to be facetious.

You can however do work experience with family friends to strengthen your UCAS application and, for solicitors at least, friends can open the doors needed to get a position or promotion in the industry. That’s before we unpack family funding for the extended period of study needed or learning professional skills from parents.

Being handed a network, rather than having to build it yourself, gives people a head start. The kids building a network have to spend time and effort doing that whilst their peers, like you, are already climbing the ladder through their connections.

Mine was a Josh

That's what you pay for at private school. It's not superior education, it's the networking.

Not true for most private schools unless you're talking about somewhere like Eton or Harrow. Most parents are just paying for things like smaller class sizes and better facilities for their children, not networking opportunities.

Both my parents were very working class second gen children and did well academically and then professionally. But that was a profession, think medicine, not something like acting or fashion where connections are pretty essential.

Ah, I'm really sorry you're not doing what you want to do, that doesn't sound fair.

I was going to say no, it's what you know, not who you know, but then I thought back to my early career and actually, sometimes it WAS about who I knew. Big "but" though, I knew them from my experience of work, not from school or university, I didn't go to private school or to Oxford.

The people who thought of me for jobs did so because I proved myself and worked hard and made it clear I wanted opportunities. As someone else said, I was also personable (not so much now, bit old and grumpy these days tbh!) and that was one of the most useful things and always has been in my career.

I read somewhere that there are only 3 interview questions and all the others are permutations of these: 1. Can you do the job? 2. Do you want to do the job and 3. Do we like you and can we work with you? That third one is pretty big.

I also appreciate that I'm definitely middle class, sound quite posh and was pretty when younger, so I definitely got what my kids call "pretty privilege" as well as class privilege. But I got no help from my parents, their friends or from ex university or school friends and I've had a pretty successful career.

Is the field you wanted to be in really niche? Is there a way of changing plan now and breaking into it? I worked with someone who was an accountant and in her 30s she retrained, became an art curator and now works at senior roles in art galleries, it was a complete U turn and worked for her.

So I think in answer to the question in your thread title is "sometimes it's who you know, sometimes it isn't". Good luck.

Having said all that, my ds has a job in a coveted industry and I introduced him via a friend, which is how he got it.

Lot of it is if your face fits . I've seen people promoted on the basis of their likeability not their actual ability. If people like you they will make excuses for you and open doors for you . Of course it's also who you know too .

Just to be clear, I don't believe I was intentionally discriminated against because I was working class. It was that because I was working class, I had to apply for more opportunities due to lack of connections, it was more expensive for me to work for free as I had to pay my own rent and i ran out of money quickly without the bank of mom and dad.

“I read somewhere that there are only 3 interview questions and all the others are permutations of these: 1. Can you do the job? 2. Do you want to do the job and 3. Do we like you and can we work with you? That third one is pretty big.”

Agree with @TheSecondMrsCampbellBlack very strongly here. As a working class person who has done very well in political / social science organisations my biggest asset has been being very personable.

Also having good ideas, energy and leadership skills. But it’s often personality that gets people’s interest and persuades them to give someone a chance.

When hiring, a strong indicator of success is personality.

Especially if the job requires teamwork and collaboration. You can learn skills, acquire knowledge and experience if you’re intelligent and able but you can’t really change your personality once it’s set in.

People from working class backgrounds arguably have to demonstrate more strongly positive personality attributes to compensate for lack of old boy network.

I am sorry this happened. Was it all down to (unfair) nepotism do you think, or perhaps also to skills which are ( also unfairly) easier to acquire within a certain background and education, such as confident relaxed, clear speaking while looking someone in the eye; being polite but reasonably assertive; fluent, well punctuated letter writing style; having an idea of what clothes to wear to fit with people around?

For your future children some of the speaking skills and apparent confidence can come from a school with smaller classes, time for discussions, debating societies, speech and drama, extended studies around all the subjects, confidence from interacting more with staff and across different clubs and groups.

I think The Sutton Trust did a study about how even very well educated, high achieving WC did not find the same jobs as their MC counterparts but I heard that on the radio about five years ago and cannot find it.

This is about social mobility in the creative arts.
https://www.suttontrust.com/our-research/a-class-act/
From acting in an award-winning film to producing a number one album, getting to the top of the creative industries is a dream for many young people. But access to such careers, both behind the scenes and in front of an audience, is currently far from equal. For young people from lower socio-economic backgrounds in particular, there are major barriers.

What a shame you could not follow your passion, even though you did so well and you also saved up to do those internshios which must be one of the worst hurdles of all for anyone without friends or family in London, or without lots of money for living costs. If I were a dictator I’d set up hostels and train fares especially for young people from outside to be able to do them, or auditions. Mentoring schemes would be great too - set up nepotism so to speak from sixth form age.

Yup

One of the reasons I'm glad we live abroad, where things are slightly less skewed

Oddly enough, in academia, people find jobs are less skewed by nepotism than in countries on the Continent.