School issue - violent kid

[PeloMom]

My kid started reception in a new school this year. Everything was going well until recently.

He comes every day complaining from a kid in the class getting physical (I don’t know if it’s just with my kid or other kids too although I have overheard the teacher giving parts of a similar speech to other parents as to me in regards to the situation).

I have been proactively approached by the teacher and principal explaining that the situation is being dealt with by involving the school councillors, parents etc.

What is a reasonable timeline for me to expect a resolution?

On top of this It’s an independent school so I’m not prepared to be paying a good amount of money for my kid to be assaulted daily (not that that’s acceptable in public schools to be clear). I have to confirm whether we will be continuing next year at the school at some point. Is it unreasonable for me to expect a solution in the next 2-3 months (holiday time included)? I appreciate it can be a process just trying to gauge if anyone has dealt with this how long it took for them to see a change. What assurances would you seek in the meantime from the school that your child is safe?
YABU- solution will take more than 2-3 months; start looking for a new school
YANBU- thing should resolve quickly

Running at a window with a brick intending to cause damage.
Running at a child with a fist intending to cause damage.

They're clearly similar to me.

Anyway, my point is that 1:1 support greatly reduces the chances of other children and adults and equipment being hurt. However it doesn't eliminate the risk.

E.g, Child sitting on the carpet with other children, adult sitting next to child as 1:1. Child unprovoked and without warning bites/punches/kicks. No triggers, no stopping.

It happens every day. There's no way of asking schools to remove the risk. It's impossible. Even if the children spends the day entirely alone with their 1:1, they will mix at lunch/assembly/break.

This is the reality of school life. Getting 1:1 support is a help but not a resolution. Schools need to do better and to do that they need way more funding.

Not in my experience as no-one refers to them at all in independent schools unless there is a need for the attached LEA funding, which as I have stated several times, is rare unless the school as specialist provision supporting LEA funded students.

It is also a pedantic discussion that it utterly irrelevant to the OP’s situation. What is salient to the OP is that IF this child has SEN needs sufficient enough that they require specialist support and, consequently, the school is encouraging the family to secure an ECHP via the LEA - it will take a very long time to secure. In my experience and amongst my friends it can take several years.

@PeloMom is not required to wait until this other child has any such assessment (even assuming one is being sought) before being entitled to ascertain what measures are being put in place to safeguard her child or protect the educational provision they are being given. She can seek an appointment and answers now.

It is not rare for an independent school to be named in section I of an EHCP, and thus the LA to be responsible for the fees and the SEP. It isn’t pedantic to point that out.

Many have to appeal, sometimes more than once, to secure an EHCP and that takes time, but where getting an EHCP takes longer than necessary because the LA thinks the statutory timescales don’t apply to them, as is often the case, parents can force LAs to act, via JR if necessary.

Remove them from the school.

It won't change.

I don’t understand what you mean. All EHCP’s name the school that the child attends and any EHCP that doesn’t have funding attached, is probably very poorly written and needs appealing to tribunal to make it specified and quantified. If a private school can’t meet needs because the provision needs funding then the EHCP needs to specify the provision, so that the LA have to fund it.

I think independent schools can afford to fund 1-2-1 while waiting for an EHCP to issued, which provides the necessary funding for the staff required. I know these things aren’t easy or straight forward, I’ve been through the EHCP process. I was told there was no way my child would get an EHCP but he did, because I didn’t listen to the school & LA staff trying to put me off. I listened to the professionals who assessed my child and said he needed one.

The law doesn’t say they have to try anything, never mind everything. My child’s school had done nothing, but the needs assessment showed he needed the support. So I got the LA to back down and issue the EHCP and now he gets the support he needs.

Easier when the parents are already paying the fees though. So they are only asking to fund the support. That doesn’t cost more in independent compared to state. Also smaller class sizes are often necessary which can be evidenced with the right reports from a decent EP, SALT or OT.

Some independent schools may be able to, but not all. And they don’t have to.

I could be wrong but I think what that poster is talking about the distinction between a) the school being named in section I and the LA being responsible for fees/SEP and b) the parents making their own arrangements because the LA (and SENDIST if the parents appeal) doesn’t agree to name the school/be responsible for the SEP&fees but the parents still want the child to attend the independent school. Although there’s a third scenario too where the LA doesn’t agree to to name the school/and be responsible for the fees but is willing to come to an arrangement whereby they fund the SEP if the parents fund the fees. Although the LA doesn’t have to come to such arrangements, not all LAs will and how often such arrangements are agreed is less than it once was.

Thanks, that makes sense.

I am glad you understood. Reading my post back, it was terribly constructed. I should proofread and shouldn’t try to multitask.

Sorry of I have been unlcear: the confusion is over state v private schools (the OP’s child attends a private school).

ECHPs are about the need for LEAs to provide additional funding for the provision that is recommended for an individual child subsequent to assessment and diagnosis. Independent schools are not usually subject to these as they are not under the remit of the LEA - the LEA remit is over state schools, independent schools are precisely that - ‘independent’ of the local authority. Consequently (as I understand it) ECHPs are not enforceable against independent schools without their agreement. So, for example, you could not decide your SEN child should attend Eton and expect a court to order in your favour or for Eton to agree to accept your child, if that makes sense?

However there is one specialist school in my area that has 40% of its pupils funded by LEA ECHPs, up to the specified maximum threshold over which parents pay the top up (this depends upon the child/LEA/SEN report but can be up to and beyond £15k pa). Most of the families at this school have sought their ECHPs by taking the LEA to court (costing approximately £40k per application after barristers and expert witness reports and assessments, and multiple appeals) and arguing that the provision their child needs is not adequately provided within the state sector locally and that, thus, they should be funded to attend this specific school. This school actually works with parents and ed psych teams to help make this happen, but many parents cannot afford the costs of the ECHP appeal (ie £40k in one chunk), and simply don’t bother, opting instead to simply find the 15k pa fees, knowing that their diagnostic reports will be sufficient to get the them the support they need in the school, but not the LEA funding to go with it.

So, at my children’s school (which was next door), they were not a specialist school, so I had no case to argue that my DC’s should go there on these grounds (even though the small class sizes, SEN support team etc where perfect for my children), so no children at the school had ECHPs and nor was there any point in trying to secure one. Additionally the school would not have supported being named as the school to which I would have wanted the LEA funding to go to as it proactively does not seek to be known/recognised as a specialist school.

Yes - this was what I was getting at. And derailing the OPs thread!

ECHPs are about the need for LEAs to provide additional funding for the provision that is recommended for an individual child subsequent to assessment and diagnosis.

A diagnosis is not required for an EHCP. EHCPs are about setting out a child’s needs and the SEP they reasonably require (and the placement they will attend). Funding is secondary to that whether in state or independent, MS or SS. Parents should focus on ensuring the SEP is detailed, specified and quantified in F rather than the funding because then it can be enforced.

So, for example, you could not decide your SEN child should attend Eton and expect a court to order in your favour or for Eton to agree to accept your child, if that makes sense?

Actually, you could. For a wholly independent school you would need an offer of a place, but if you had that it absolutely could be named in section I and if the LA refused parents could appeal to SENDIST. Some mainstream independent schools do agree to be named in I. It isn’t about them wanting to be seen as a SS or not. And parents absolutely can argue an independent MS is needed.

However there is one specialist school in my area that has 40% of its pupils funded by LEA ECHPs, up to the specified maximum threshold over which parents pay the top up (this depends upon the child/LEA/SEN report but can be up to and beyond £15k pa).

If the school is named in section I, the LA is responsible for funding the fees and all the SEP detailed, specified and quantified in F. Even in state MS schools, the school only has a best endeavours duty. Ultimately, under section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014, it is the LA responsible for ensuring SEP is provided.

Parents don’t need to spend £40k to appeal to SENDIST. Representation for parents is not essential. Independent assessments are often necessary, their attendance at hearings less so. Where parents can’t afford independent assessments but aren’t eligible for legal aid, which can fund necessary independent assessments, there are charities who can help such as Parents in Need.

But scenario A can still happen in independent MS schools.

Wish I’d never commented on it - it is irrelevant to the OP. As I have stated multiple times.

All that is relevant is that EVEN if the violent child concerned is subject to an ECHP application by its parents it is IRRELEVANT to her child who is entitled to be safeguarded and have their educational provision un-impacted. She is paying for a service and is entitled to make assert her rights both as a concerned parent and as a paying customer.

It's time some parents whose little darlings bully and terrorise other children stopped hiding behind diagnoses and learned to parent properly and look at themselves and their examples.

It might not be relevant to the OP’s situation, but it may be important to someone else reading, which is why I commented.

OP, parent power is much higher at independent than in state. You need to watch out for the other parents the teacher is talking to and have a word with them. You should ALL state your concerns in writing to the school.
School will pay attention. Sounds like they're being proactive and that could be as they're bing goood or it could be them trying to minimise it.
When you write in keep it fact based and try and link the behaviour to policies.

But you are wrong - every LEA operates differently so anyone reading here who is affected needs to contact their local LEA to find out how it works, and ideally they need the enthusiastic/active support of their school, which is usually only forthcoming if the child has significant and acute needs. In my area of the 200k pupils in state schools, over 13.5K have ECHPs - the department that processes these have a backlog of over a thousand children many of whom have been waiting years. The only way to filter to the top of that queue is to obtain a private assessment and then to take the LEA to court - and it’s the parents who can fund this, whose children get the awards.

The WL to be seen by local CAMHS was 4 years to get an ASD assessment, and even longer for an ADHD assessment. And f course SEN can encompass many other issues outside ND issues. The local state school would not support us in obtaining an ECHP as they did not have the staff or resources to complete the paperwork or to liaise with the LEA, which was the case for nearly every person I know in my area. The ECHP would only flow from a diagnosis OR assessed educational need (which usually required the assessment) and the IEP we managed to get after a fight for my youngest was very tepid and in adequate. We gave up and went private - paying 3.5k for each child’s assessments in total. We then couldn’t afford to then go down the ECHP route for 2 children, but the local independent school had places, and were happy to take my children on because they were bright and had no behavioural issues. They stated that ECHPs were not needed because they did not take funded children and would work from the existing IEPs and work with the private Ed Psych teams.

EVERY single person I know who has obtained an ECHP has spent tens of thousands - it’s the only way to get it quickly rather than wait on the list for years to be resolved. The local MPs have been involved in advocates for many of the local parents on this issue.

My BF was told to expect to pay £39k to secure the expert council and expert testimony 10 years ago, the costs are higher today. They couldn’t afford it and no-one would help at the private school he was in by then because ECHPs relate to state funding, prioritise state school provision as a result, and there was no state school provision (hence she had moved him unsuccessfully into the private sector) and so she had no choice but to fund special school herself reliant on an IEP, and reports from ed psychs, speech therapists and OT (again, all obtained privately).

The HT and a parent of the school I mentioned previously (where BF’s child attended) were recently interviewed about precisely this issue a Radio4 programme in response to the impact VAT will have on private school fees. Our MP is fighting the government proposals because this cohort of private school parents is woefully misunderstood by the Labour government and many of them will be forced to pull their children out of the aforementioned school because they cannot get ECHPs quickly enough to get SEN places in the local state schools next year - where there is little to no SEN provision at the level required anyway (hence them being in this school)… so I know that I am not, as you say, incorrect at all.

And, I repeat, it is NOT relevant to the OP’s thread!!

No, I’m not wrong. My posts are based on the actual law. Your posts, on the other hand, are littered with inaccuracies about EHCPs. I mean, you can’t even get the name of EHCPs right. They are EHCPs, not ECHPs.

Despite what many LAs think, the law is the same whatever LA you live in. Parents need to know the actual law. Not the LAs unlawful policies and myths they would like parents to believe. The last people they should ask is their LA. LAs lie and give unlawful information all the time.

Parents do not need the school the support of the school to get an EHCP. Parents can make the request themselves. To have a wholly independent school named, they need the school to agreed to be named, but to get an EHCP parents do not need the school to be enthusiastic or actively support them. It is possible to get an EHCP without diagnosis and without multiple APDR cycles.

And, again, independent MS can and are named in EHCPs and funded. Just like wholly independent special/specialist schools can be named. Section 41 independents can also be named but the rules are different to naming wholly independents.

If the LA is in breach of the statutory timescales, as is often the case, parents can force the LA to act, via JR if necessary. Parents don’t have to accept LAs acting unlawfully.

Again, if parents have to appeal, need independent assessments, but can’t afford them, there are other options, e.g. legal aid or charity funding.

Parents do not need to spend £40k or anywhere near that to appeal. Some may choose to, but they don’t have to and never have.

100% this! ⬆️

Plus...

Keep records of everything- from when it started- including any conversations you've had with the school.

I would be asking for specific actions they are going to take, with immediate effect, to keep your child from harm throughout his day.

I'd also consider removing your child until they can demonstrate the above.

And then they are the one getting in trouble for defending themselves. My daughter took having her hair pulled, being stabbed with a sharp pencil (drew blood), pinched under the table and numerous other injuries for weeks and weeks, after being told off for complaining. Until she snapped and pushed the other child away from her, this child makes a huge drama and pretends to fall on the floor, and I'm getting a phone call from the teacher saying they are concerned my child is becoming aggressive and 'is there anything going on at home to cause her to be so angry'.
That week she lost her breaktime and the other child got 'star of the week' for 'being so understanding of a classmates behaviour'.
I work in a SEN school, and understand the challenges, but when it comes to my child, I'm not allowing that as an excuse for my child being hurt daily. This child knew exactly what she was doing, she wasn't lashing out in anger/dysregulated, it was calculated bullying which the parents and school tried to excuse under the heading of SEN.