"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

[MrBungle]

Is this a reasonable response to the Darlington Nurses issue? (males in female changing spaces)

Wes Streeting requested the Darlington Nurses drafter the guidance.

https://archive.ph/BNTtH (Link to Telegraph article discussing details)

We have very good reasons for stigmatising men who want to change and shower with women and children.

Still, if you want to undress with men because you think it makes you morally superior, have at it. But I am glad you're leaving the women's spaces alone for those of us who don't think grown men should be undressing with little girls. Please encourage this among your fellow allies who see nothing wrong with that. You won't have to look far to find them.

Someone needs to release a photo of the dude who's entering the women's changing rooms in Darlington.

One nurse has claimed that she had a panic attack after repeatedly being asked by Rose while alone with her in the changing room, “Are you getting changed yet?”
Rose really does sound like a poor marginalised transwomen who just wants to get changed in peace doesn't he.

Agree everyone should have their own spaces
Disagree with the term cis

If you take your fingers out of your ears, stop bellowing "TRANSPHOBE" every five seconds and open your eyes, you will find that, in fact, transgender people have been making their voices heard very clearly, very repetitively and very loudly for far too long.

Don't be ridiculous.

To get a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) in the UK, you must:
-Be at least 18 years old
-Have lived in your acquired gender for at least two years
-Plan to live permanently in your new gender
-Provide two medical reports written by different medical doctors or clinical psychologists in the UK

Hi. Username should give my position away.

I would like to see third spaces. I'm fucking tired. I don't wanna go into detail with the whys and wheres because I'm fucking tired. Just allow us third spaces so we can use the bathroom away from people who hate us. We will never be accepted that's clear, so give us spaces so you don't have to tolerate being around us. We are aware that we are mostly seen as vermin.

I'm aware there will be people in my community who will disagree with me, but I'm tired of fighting them too. So fucking tired.

Being cis is a privilege

Being called 'cis' is certainly not, though. 😡

For me, this is about the importance of the individual being able to make their own risk assessment if that makes sense.
I object to men being in women’s spaces because it is a risk that we didn’t choose to take, nor do we gain any benefit from it.
So if I decided to walk home pissed in the dark, that is my choice (perhaps a daft one, but still my choice) and the reward is that I get home without paying for a taxi.

So I would be in favour of, where practical, a third gender neutral space.

Men are a risk to women. Therefore, men use the men’s. Trans women can either use the men’s (if they choose to do so) or they can use the gender neutral one. Trans men can use whichever of the three they want as they are biological women. and Women get to keep their space.

This is all about every individual having the choice to take whatever risks they deem necessary. Allowing biological men in to women’s spaces takes that choice from us.

Amen! And it ain’t a fucking privilege

Except when TWs post on social media about walking past the mixed sex facilities to deliberately seek out the women's....

@Duebug well as an allegedly "intersex" individual you should know then that all such humans are still either male or female, so there is no ambiguity about which bathrooms they are able to use because they will know whether their condition is a variant which either affects males or females.

Many of us, myself included, reject the term CIS. I am not a subset of my own sex class.
I am a woman. A trans woman is a man. The burden should fall to men to be more accommodating to trans women in their spaces rather than women and girls to risk our safety by accommodating them in ours. Women's single sex spaces were fought for based on need. Those needs still exist. It is horribly white centric to ignore the cultural needs of minority women also and to tell them they must share their spaces with men.

For the previous, what, how many decades, it has not been an issue. We didn't need to ask people at the door to "prove" their sex, because we can tell men from women, even if the men are wearing dresses and lippy. If a man insisted on coming intot he WOMEN'S facilities, we could ask him to leave, or report him to staff/security, and know that they would support us. THAT is how to guarantee protection of single-sex spaces.

People with DSDs are well under 1% of the population and there is clear consensus among the community that the term "intersex" is offensive and inaccurate and misleading, as it implies that people with DSDs aren't male or female when in fact they all are. That is literally how you diagnose the DSD. There is no third gamete and no third sex. There is also clear consensus that the DSD community wishes not to be exploited by trans activists since it's nothing to do with them, and they do not in any way prove that sex isn't real; quite the opposite, they prove it still exists even when sex development has a variation from the standard.

How lucky we are to have a poster among our midst who not only has a DSD - itself an extremely rare occurrence - but one who rejects the very clear and overwhelming consensus of the DSD community, made plain over several years now, in order to push the TRA lie that sex isn't fully real and therefore women don't have a right to sex specific spaces.

What are the odds!

@NonPlayerCharacter I don't believe their claim for one second personally.

They are correct though. Is what they're saying not true? The way people talk about trans people here is disgusting.

Can you quote some of the disgusting things that have been said please?

@nonbinaryfinery stop with the hyperbole. You know fully we the reality of your sexed body. Choosing to eschew regressive gender stereotypes doesn't change that. Nor does it make you some magical third sex. Use the appropriate bathroom for your biological sex. It's really much more simple than you're making it.

Who cares?

Doesn't matter if zero crimes were committed by men without penises.

They're still men.

"I'm sorry if the truth offends you."

As I've said before changing villages are the only sensible way forward.

I'd suspect in the case in the OP, there are other changing facilities in Darlington hospital the non binary, sex change or whatever could use, but just want to make a scene.

The way people talk about trans people here is disgusting.

Any offers to "punch them in the fucking face?" 🙁I don't see a problem. But of course, the first priority of MN posters is going to be the welfare of women and children, rather than a self-regarding small cohort of males.

I dunno about that, it seems to have worked fine up until recently.

Well the response to the argument is: too bad, sorry.

Because the concern of trans people not to be potentially “outed” is completely irreconcilable with women’s right to safety, dignity and privacy. It is a clash of rights, and it has to be resolved in favour of women.

The alternative is to allow ALL MEN into women’s spaces. That means:

• genuine” trans people (assuming such a category indeed exists),
• predatory men who pretend to be transgender in order to gain access to women’s spaces
• predatory men generally, some of whom may say they are trans but actually make zero attempt to appear or “live as a woman” ((whatever the fcuk that means).

And before some smart arse says “but no one would pretend to be transgender to get access to women’s spaces, if they’re predatory they’ll just go in anyway” that is complete and utter rubbish.

Predatory men have trained for the priesthood, become doctors/nurses or got jobs in children’s homes or as Scout leaders in order to get access to victims. Ie they’ve a track record for doing far more than donning a skirt and lipstick.

If men with special identities have to be let into women’s spaces then no-one can any longer challenge any men in there, otherwise they’ll have misogynistic whiners like @DadJoke accusing them of transphobia.

The good ones stay out so the bad ones stand out. That’s why single sex spaces are vital.