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"Trans people should not be allowed to use women’s showers and changing rooms, proposed NHS guidance says" - Darlington Nurses draft new guidance.

437 replies

MrBungle · 03/12/2024 13:47

Is this a reasonable response to the Darlington Nurses issue? (males in female changing spaces)

Wes Streeting requested the Darlington Nurses drafter the guidance.

https://archive.ph/BNTtH (Link to Telegraph article discussing details)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
viques · 03/12/2024 20:04

MrBungle · 03/12/2024 15:44

Well, there is a list. https://transcrimeuk.com

Goodness, you can see from that list what frail, misunderstood, vulnerable folk those transwomen are. We should all be ashamed of denying them their rightful places in our toilets, changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards, prisons and all the other places we are trying to ban them from. Isn’t it obvious that they need exposure to the gentling effects of being with natal women to tame their violent natures, teach them better make up skills, how to queue in womens toilets,how to be humble and grateful, and probably teach them how to knit and crochet too because we is goddesses.

NonPlayerCharacter · 03/12/2024 20:12

Duebug · 03/12/2024 19:16

And in what way is me not telling you my diagnosis somehow disproving of my sex? As I’ve said you don’t have to believe me, I’m here and offering my perspective which is relatively unique to MN as you’re pointed out yourself. If you choose to not listen then that’s ok and on you.
You’re fishing for personal information to try and invalidate my opinion on a third space which would be great for everyone. That way me and transgender folk don’t have to feel like we’re making you uncomfortable with our presence.
I’ve tried to explain things to you as clearly and simply as possible but you are clearly not in a listening mood. To reiterate, please look for your local community and learn from them directly, who knows - I might see you there! Best of luck on your learning adventures. (Also the other intersex individuals I know avoid X like the plague due to the Trump administration and Musks association. X is famously right wing and is not an objective source)

If you were a member of the DSD community, you'd have a good guess at who I follow and read, and you'd know what they say. You also wouldn't so blatantly try to conflate the DSD community with the trans community as you do with your "me and transgender folk don’t have to feel like we’re making you uncomfortable with our presence" nonsense. That's one way you give yourself away, by the way. Another one was when you shoehorned "spectrum" into discussing DSDs. That's a dog whistle for people who want to suggest that DSDs prove sex isn't binary. In fact, they prove that it is. Every DSD occurs in either a male or female body. That is literally how you know it's a DSD, and which DSD it is.

But I'm not asking for your personal information. It will be obvious to anyone who does even a small bit of research that you do not know what you're talking about.

But despite your plain and painful attempt to deflect by turning this into a discussion about how you don't have to give your credentials, it doesn't matter. Nobody actually cares what sex you are. The point is, people with DSDs, even if they just LOVED being dragged into this debate all the time and described as not fully male or female, even if they were prominently asking to be referred to as intersex, whatever... would still all be male or female and would not disprove the binary nature of sex in humans. As anyone who has a DSD knows, each DSD is unique to one sex or the other. They are variations off the standard male or female pathway. A person with the DSD 46 XY 5-ARD doesn't lack a uterus because of it; he lacks a uterus because he's male. His testes are internal and his penis smaller than usual because he is male and has a male line DSD

Go forth with your new knowledge, little grasshopper. Stop conflating DSDs with transgenderism, stop spreading misinformation about biology and stop trying to get men into showers with women and little girls.

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 20:12

nonbinaryfinery · 03/12/2024 18:05

Hi. Username should give my position away.

I would like to see third spaces. I'm fucking tired. I don't wanna go into detail with the whys and wheres because I'm fucking tired. Just allow us third spaces so we can use the bathroom away from people who hate us. We will never be accepted that's clear, so give us spaces so you don't have to tolerate being around us. We are aware that we are mostly seen as vermin.

I'm aware there will be people in my community who will disagree with me, but I'm tired of fighting them too. So fucking tired.

Thankyou
So perhaps campaign within your community for those third spaces as women are already doing this
Then
Job done

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 20:20

viques · 03/12/2024 20:04

Goodness, you can see from that list what frail, misunderstood, vulnerable folk those transwomen are. We should all be ashamed of denying them their rightful places in our toilets, changing rooms, refuges, hospital wards, prisons and all the other places we are trying to ban them from. Isn’t it obvious that they need exposure to the gentling effects of being with natal women to tame their violent natures, teach them better make up skills, how to queue in womens toilets,how to be humble and grateful, and probably teach them how to knit and crochet too because we is goddesses.

Thanks for that list MrBungle
very telling

SinnerBoy · 03/12/2024 20:25

Duebug

...the assault rate for cis men attacks on trans women are absolutely horrendous...

Would you care to quote some of these statistics? Or are you following Tatchel's lead with: "As we all know..." ?

BodyKeepingScore · 03/12/2024 20:27

@NonPlayerCharacter I wouldn't even bother humouring their claim. She allegedly has a child so the chances of her actually having a DSD are vanishingly rare. Not impossible, but unlikely.

NonPlayerCharacter · 03/12/2024 20:37

BodyKeepingScore · 03/12/2024 20:27

@NonPlayerCharacter I wouldn't even bother humouring their claim. She allegedly has a child so the chances of her actually having a DSD are vanishingly rare. Not impossible, but unlikely.

I'm not humouring it at all, I'm just trying to phrase it in a way so that I don't get deleted. If that person has a DSD then I'm a banana.

Skyrainlight · 03/12/2024 20:40

KimberleyClark · 03/12/2024 15:11

It’s always seemed to me that the view on here is that people with penises should not use female changing rooms and I fully concur with that. Has the view changed?

I would be interested to know what proportion of the crimes committed by males identifying as women have been committed by fully transitioned transwomen.

Edited

It's not only about crimes and danger to women although that is hugely important. A large number of women don't want to share changing rooms with men, there is a reason they are separate. To me a man who feels he is a woman is still a man, a man who feels he is a woman to the extent that he wishes to remove his penis is still a man. I have compassion for him, but I still don't want to share the showers with a man no matter how he identifies. And I don't believe that his feeling that he is a woman outweighs my feeling (and biological reality) that he is a man.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/12/2024 20:46

Nope. Men who identify as women will continue to use the space for women because that is what they believe they are.

They can be called out for it. They would be under no illusion that most women were happy with them using it, if women felt free to speak up. At the moment, people tell these males they are welcome, even put up snidely little posters telling you to mind your own business.

Plus, if it is a workplace or they are a known regular in a location, they can be told not to use the women's facilities. Yes some men would still breach this, but as pp said, at least they would stand out as in the wrong.

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 20:50

SinnerBoy · 03/12/2024 20:25

Duebug

...the assault rate for cis men attacks on trans women are absolutely horrendous...

Would you care to quote some of these statistics? Or are you following Tatchel's lead with: "As we all know..." ?

If we look at available figures proportionally and obviously we don’t have all attack / hate crime figures for everyone However

There are 48,000 transwomen ( last census )
There are 68.35 million population so let’s assume 34million men

There were 4732 hare crimes against transpeople ( 2023 )
There were 46 sex crimes including rape committed by transwomen ( recent data UK Govn, there’s no data for hate crimes committed )

Calculating the proportion of crimes against transwomen by the number of males or half the pop
= 1crime committed for every 7340 men.

Calculate the proportion of crimes ( we only have figures for sex crimes though ) committed by transwomen by the number of transwomen in the population
= 1 crime committed for every 1043 transwomen

Both these stats are on the increase.
Shocking isn’t it!

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 20:56

That’s hate. Not hare 🥴

BodyKeepingScore · 03/12/2024 21:01

@NonPlayerCharacter agreed!

Hoardasurass · 03/12/2024 21:35

IfIHadAHeart · 03/12/2024 19:33

I’ve already tried that. They said that it’s separate facilities, or separate use of. They believe the lockable “pod” constitutes separate use.

I’ve raised issues with storing sanitary products in a locker in a mixed-sex area. I’ve highlighted the number of women, statistically, who have been victims of sexual assaults or violent behaviour from men and may therefore find the new locker room difficult. I’ve raised cultural issues, the fact that people (men) WILL still change at their lockers and that two pods is a completely insufficient number for the amount of staff. They aren’t interested.

Reading between the lines, they are pre-empting an as yet nonexistent person actually transitioning and the subsequent need to provide additional facilities or deal with issues such as in the OP. If we only have one locker room, they won’t need to provide anything else and no one will be able to complain.

If they are only providing 2 pods for everyone on a shift they are not providing enough of them.
I know that this is being forced on police officers against their will.
Have you thought about contacting the seen in police? If not faircop can put you in touch with your local branch if you're interested.
Good luck

CarolinaWren · 03/12/2024 21:36

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 16:34

If we re fighting for equality and the right to womens only spaces I think you’ll find that suggestion is in contravention of equality.
Everyone has rights.
Yes, even men

I agree. Men deserve privacy, too. Sure, some men don't care if women watch them peeing at a urinal, but other men do care and they deserve to have their privacy.

Soontobe60 · 03/12/2024 21:41

KimberleyClark · 03/12/2024 15:11

It’s always seemed to me that the view on here is that people with penises should not use female changing rooms and I fully concur with that. Has the view changed?

I would be interested to know what proportion of the crimes committed by males identifying as women have been committed by fully transitioned transwomen.

Edited

That’s actually irrelevant. I don't think that any of the men I work with are likely to assault me in the toilets, but as with any other male, I don't want them in the ladies staff toilets end of.

PissedOffAtApologistsForSA · 03/12/2024 21:43

JuneSoon · 03/12/2024 16:39

Seriously, how many people who identify as trans are there? It seems like a huge expense to provide "third space" facilities for a tiny number of people.

How about men use the men's facilities, women use the women's facilities and we just accept that you can't change sex. As we all know.

I don't see why this can't be case tbh. It used to be that trans persons would use the bathrooms of their birth sex, I don't know why or how it changed.

NonPlayerCharacter · 03/12/2024 21:44

Of course men have a right to single sex spaces too. They don't face the same physical threat from women but they may still require the spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy, religious belief and so on.

Additional third, unisex spaces would seem to be the answer. Then everyone has two options. The problem is that so many TRAs do not want a choice of a men's space or a mixed sex place for themselves. They want the women's spaces.

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 21:44

PissedOffAtApologistsForSA · 03/12/2024 21:43

I don't see why this can't be case tbh. It used to be that trans persons would use the bathrooms of their birth sex, I don't know why or how it changed.

Entitlement

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 21:45

NonPlayerCharacter · 03/12/2024 21:44

Of course men have a right to single sex spaces too. They don't face the same physical threat from women but they may still require the spaces for reasons of dignity, privacy, religious belief and so on.

Additional third, unisex spaces would seem to be the answer. Then everyone has two options. The problem is that so many TRAs do not want a choice of a men's space or a mixed sex place for themselves. They want the women's spaces.

Yep
Entitlement

CarolinaWren · 03/12/2024 21:45

SinnerBoy · 03/12/2024 20:25

Duebug

...the assault rate for cis men attacks on trans women are absolutely horrendous...

Would you care to quote some of these statistics? Or are you following Tatchel's lead with: "As we all know..." ?

The sources usually quoted are self reported surveys that include "crimes" not reported to police. When anyone can claim that they were a victim, with no evidence whatsoever required, those statistics need to be taken with an entire box of salt.

PissedOffAtApologistsForSA · 03/12/2024 21:55

Flapjacka · 03/12/2024 19:36

For Christmas I’d like all the silly transphobes to be quiet for just one day 🔔

There is transphobia and there is women being worried about safeguarding concerns. I'm not seeing the first group on this thread, I am however seeing plenty of the second.

Transfolk aren't a new thing but this demand to use women's spaces is. Funny that.

Does anyone really believe that in the past transfolk never went out in public or restricted their fluid intake because they couldn't use the bathrooms of their birth gender? Because I don't. I saw plenty of men dressed as ladies at Pride events in the past, I saw them drinking plenty and full of confidence and bravado staying out all hours . I didn't see any of them with anxiety about using the toilet. I'm calling bullshit on this idea. So, this begs the question : why can't they just use the bathrooms of their birth sex????

NonPlayerCharacter · 03/12/2024 21:55

StandingSideBySide · 03/12/2024 21:45

Yep
Entitlement

Women need these spaces because they can't have safeguarding or equal opportunity without them. TRAs want these spaces because they think it will validate them as women.

No woman uses the women's toilets or changing room because she needs reassurance that people see her as female. She uses them precisely because she and everyone else knows she is female.

PoundlandColumbo · 03/12/2024 22:00

Flapjacka · 03/12/2024 19:36

For Christmas I’d like all the silly transphobes to be quiet for just one day 🔔

Yeah, all those silly, rights hoarding middle class dinosaurs of a certain age. Why don't they just pipe down and stop making a fuss about things?

ChishiyaBat · 03/12/2024 22:21

@Flapjacka For Christmas i'd like men to stay out of womens spaces🤶

PissedOffAtApologistsForSA · 03/12/2024 22:22

@KimberleyClark

Sexual assault is usually more about power and using strength to dominate than sex drive or genitalia so a transitioned biologically born man isn't going to be any less or more of a risk to women. A man is man, regardless of whether how he identifies, how low his testosterone is, whether he has a penis still or not.

I have heard the argument that chemically transitioned TW don't pose a threat to women like cismen. If that's true why doesn't it work the other way? High testosterone women (ie. Women with PCOS) would show patterns of unusually sexually aggressive behaviour and be committing offences against children and other women. But we rarely see this. Isn't that funny?