Caused a scene in a cafe today. Now wondering if we were unreasonable

[pennytoffees]

I'll start off by saying I'm welsh, born and bred and speak the language as does my entire family.

We visited (my mother and I) a local cafe today and had such an awful experience. We haven't been there in years but don't remember it being that bad. We don't sound welsh and spoke to them in English so they obviously assumed that we were tourists. They were very cold towards us.

Anyway, we placed our order and another staff member brought the food over to us. We asked for some sauces to which she replied "go and ask her" and then pointed to the woman at the till. There was a queue and we didn't want the food to go cold so asked her if she could get us some. She gave me a filthy look but reluctantly handed them over. I just want to add that at no point did she say that the sauces cost extra so we just presumed that they were free like most cafes/restaurants. It turns out that they weren't (to be honest I think it's pretty greedy charging customers for sachets of sauce when they've spent £14 on a meal and I don't know any other local businesses that do it but thats another argument). We would have paid with no issues had she explained that to us.

The main issue is that she came over to a couple sat behind us and started talking about us in Welsh thinking that we didn't understand. Funnily enough they asked for some sauces and she gave them for free but when we asked it was an issue. The only difference is they were clearly locals. At this point we'd had enough so I asked to speak with the manager and she asked me "why, is there a problem?". I said "yes but I'm not discussing it with you". Anyway, he came over and I explained what had happened. She was on the other side of the counter and came over and said "I'm sorry, I wasn't talking about you". She wasn't close enough to hear us talking so obviously knew what she had done wrong and was just trying to cover her tracks.

He apologised and we left it at that, didn't even finish our food as we felt so uncomfortable. To be honest I don't think he knew what to do but after reading the reviews online, it's clearly a regular occurrence and he doesn't care how his staff behaves or treats customers. It was embarrassing as everyone was looking at us. We don't like confrontation or causing trouble but felt we had to confront her. I believe we would have been treated differently had they known we were welsh. I was actually embarrassed to be welsh to be honest. They forget it's the tourists keeping them in business.

AIBU? Would you have confronted her or just walked away?

It’s an unacceptable thing to say whatever the context. You are clearly just making excuses for blatant xenophobia and racism. Racists do tend to believe racism doesn’t exist.

The English are not a race.

Edit to expand a bit. I am the same sort of age and from theh same sort of area as Lenny Henry. We are both English. He's experienced racism and I haven't and that racism was not because he is English.

I have an accent that apparently sounds a bit like Welsh, so have had people speak to me in Welsh and be surprised when I don't understand. Just to add to the fun, when you say you are from Co Durham, people assume you are Irish. And yes, English people make the same mistake!

The staff here were clearly out of order.

But, everyone's had enough of entitled English tourists.

Some Welsh people do hate English people. That’s all people are saying. They’re not saying all Welsh people hate English but some do and English people on this thread have experienced that. However when we’ve talked about our experiences other posters have called us liars. Do you think that is ok?

It’s still unacceptable. It’s xenophobia, which is a term used interchangeably with racism.

Well, it really shouldn't be.

I read the whole thing in the voice of Stacy from gavin and Stacy 😂 does anyone else do that if an OP says they are welsh?

they were in the wrong - even if you were a tourist, they are in a tourist area and are a cafe. What do they expect?

Whether it should be or not, don’t you think Xenophobia is unacceptable?

It’s clear from this thread that some English people hate Welsh people and are uncomfortable with hearing them speak a British language that they don’t understand.

If you walk into a pub and all you can hear is Welsh, and then start to pick up the odd word or phrase in English (which is natural for Welsh speakers) you’re going to focus on those English words and think people have switched languages when all they have done is continue to speak as they were speaking.

I'm certainly seeing a lot of xenophobia on this thread.

Your name is unfortunate considering Kimberly in Flintshire is no more parent company having decided to pull out of Wales.

I’m not denying that some English people hate Welsh people and that is unacceptable too. It happens in both directions. I’ve been called I liar on this thread for saying that I suffered Xenophobia as an English person growing up in wales. Do you think
that is acceptable? Do you think some English people hate Welsh people but no Welsh people hate English people?

Do you think it’s unacceptable?

I would have spoken very loudly in Welsh to her so the entire cafe could hear. And have done on a similar occasion many years ago.
I've had a few instances in the past where people make the assumption that I'm English .....once when I was a lot younger with a mouthful of metal braces I was in the pub with some friends. A group of very respectable men was nearby, one of whom commented in Welsh that he wouldn't like to imagine what performing a certain sexual act - you can imagine what - with me would do to his member. This particular man was quite well known in Wales at the time, and was often on TV etc.. I stood up and walked over to him announcing in Welsh in a very loud voice, and crooking my little finger at him that he would never have the opportunity to find out what that would be like, Boi Bach! Much laughter and applause to that and his friends made him apologise.

Good for you 😁

Ah ha I'm afraid this can be common on the island.

My IL's are English but moved there. When they tried to integrate with the locals (none tourist village) they would be snubbed and would be ignored whilst servers reverted to Welsh having served others in English. The one time my FIL shot back in Welsh along the lines of "We understand every word you are saying. We might be English but we are making a conscious effort to learn Welsh. Would you prefer us to engage in Welsh or carry on in English?". They've now visited that place many times and the proprietors have helped them to find local trusted tradesmen, local produce and given locals knowledge in the last ten years since. They've had it in other locations on the island but as they speak fluent Welsh (more than the locals sometimes) it doesn't seem so much of an issue.

Can you expand on this? You sound as if you have inside information!

You were in the right, she shouldn’t have gotten away with it. We had similar in Disneyland Paris when a family sent their little boy to try and queue jump right in front of us. When I refused to move, he looked at his mum and loudly said in English ‘they’re not moving mummy’ (clearly thinking we were French or maybe another nationality) I made sure that I said (politely) that I wouldn’t be moving as we were here first. The mum looked like she was chewing on a wasp 🐝

What a strange mindset some people must have to instantly take a disliking to someone because they are not a local. I just find that so bizarre. I wonder what goes through their head. It is herd mentality? One bad experience?

You don’t own a town/village just because you happened to be born there.

There are a few. I just don’t think it’s the massive issue that some posters are making out. And many posters do not need any excuse to bash the Welsh.

It’s clear from this thread that some English people hate Welsh people and are uncomfortable with hearing them speak a British language that they don’t understand.

This is a really bizarre take on the thread! Read the OP. It's an incident where someone was badly treated because the waitress thought (wrongly) that they were not Welsh. That's appalling, and no-one should be excusing it.

Some people have tried to set up a straw-man argument that it's the use of the Welsh language (long may it live) that tourists/English people are objecting to. i've never heard that - but I have experienced minor versions of what the OP describes.

I had a Welsh headteacher (grew up in Cheshire) who was amazing and from primary school we went to Wales for history, geography, biology, drama - you name it. I loved it, but have been put off in my adult life after some experiences of the type the OP mentions. It's absolutely not in people's imagination! And comments on here sadly seem to confirm strong anti-English feeling. Please don't try and say history is the excuse - no-one on this thread (or living today) has oppressed Welsh people and they shouldn't be targeted because of medieval history.

Any xenophobia is an issue. Posters aren’t making it a massive issue, they are simply telling us their experiences of it.

Yes - very Royston Vesey!

You couldn't be more wrong - house prices have actually fallen becuase no one is buying. It has nothing at all to do with the Welsh language. Welsh people will continue to speak Welsh and their children learn it in school - what has that got to do with people moving in from other places? If English people move to wales and their dc's go to school there, they will be taught Welsh! No one is denying the importance of carrying on the language.

My IL's own a holiday home in North Wales and during covid the locals put up signs on the entrance to the village saying "fuck off English" etc. When my IL's went down to check on their house (when it was allowed) they were told (threatened) to leave and that there'd been loads of trouble/police being called etc. (obviously they are not all like this but the few give the many a bad reputation)

They've just sold their house there largely due to what they feel is anti-English feeling. Loads of other people they know are getting out due to the section 24 regarding holiday let's. I believe things have gone very quiet and tourism is not doing well, many locals are now trying to get the section 24 revoked as it's negatively affecting them too. If you can only sell your house to people who want to live there full time it obviously drastically lowers its value especially in a seaside town in the middle of nowhere with very little opportunity. Young people don't want to live there - they move out to cities. It's a mess! I think the village my IL's owned a property in will end up even more of a ghost town and with none of the outside money from tourism brought in to prop it up. Just ask some of the people who own businesses there - it's pretty bad.