AIBU to think it’s too soon to for the school to be diagnosis autism

[CourageTrouble]

I am writing this on behalf of my friend ( who knows ) I have a daughter with SEN needs EHCP etc but even I am struggling to understand exactly what’s going on with the school and friends DS.
We will call him George.

George is 4, summer born ( end of August ) started primary school September, previously went to private nursery from 9-6 4 days a week due to work commitments.
he was fine in nursery, no issues raised. Performed in the graduation assembly fine etc ( relevant later on ) development checks were all normal during toddler years etc

with in the first week of starting school mum was called in because they said he wasn’t where the curriculum needed him to be and didn’t have focus.
he struggled to settle in the mornings, they asked her to drop him off late and pick him up early ( 15 minutes either way )
by the end of the second week they told her that they were removing him from class and putting him in with the nursery kids and then sent her leaflets via email about parenting and autism.
they then called her in a few times to discuss putting him on the Sen register.
last week they called her in to tell her that he wasn’t going to be included in the nativity plays and to keep him at home for the 2 days as he will get nothing from it and won’t conform and other parents will be there.
today they have phoned her to say that they can no longer have him in the afternoons and can only attend the morning.

his only been at school 11 weeks and she is beside her self not understanding what’s going wrong.
when she asks they say his too far behind the curriculum and doesn’t focus.
they talk about him like he 100 percent had autism - she doesn’t mind of course if he does but she is worried that they have come to this conclusion too fast without giving him a chance to settle.

Whether there is undiagnosed sen or not this school sounds horrible and uncaring. I'm not surprised he gets upset going in, he probably senses he is being treated differently. They can't just unilaterally decide he had autism. Where is the referral for diagnosis, the support plan, the ehcp application if they are so sure.

There’s nothing there to suggest autism in your post at least, there must be more traits they are seeing, but certainly not understanding letters, numbers and phonics on its own has anything to do with autism in isolation. In fact many autistic children are good a decoding symbols but have poor social understanding…

Also, no school should be suggesting an actual diagnosable condition, even if they think it autism could be a possibility, it’s morally questionable that they would be throwing the A word around. My son is almost certainly autistic and is on the diagnosis pathway at 3 years old, but no one who has worked with him in a professional capacity has mentioned the actual word itself because they are not qualified to suggest it.

All your friend can do is follow suggestions for going down the referral pathway but you also need a lot of evidence or else the referral will simply be rejected.

It depends on the school. Sadly a lot of schools just see SEND as a nuisance.

This

Are the school taking the home situation into account. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to have a sibling that has long term health problems never mind being 4 in that situation and starting school all at the same time.

Are there any schools with enhanced resources? I have an August born and chose an ER school as they seemed more child focussed and wanted to work with my daughter to help her settle and get to where she needs to be. She's only the size of a 2 year old and is very quiet they keep an eye on her physically and will put in adjustments if needed and have given her a carpet space at the front and near the teacher. They have a classroom for kids with additional needs and they are able to be in mainstream education when it beneficial to them and then have the extra support when they need as well. It doesn't sound the most supportive of schools and if it is or isn't autism it doesn't sound like they are going to be in a position be a positive influence on this child in which case it would be best to find a setting where this child can thrive whether that is in a reception class or dropping back to a preschool setting.

I think it's ridiculous. I remember in my DD's class there were several children on the 'watch and wait' list and about 50% don't meet the criteria now. My daughter does and has her assessment this year after a four year wait. Might as well go on the waiting list but don't feel that this a diagnosis at this stage. I didn't and still don't say that my DD is autistic. Not that ashamed or in denial, she probably does but until you are diagnosed how do you know?

I'm the mother of a very late August born DD who is now in year 2. In reception I was told she didn't know when it was appropriate for her not to shout out so was often at the front of the class with the teacher. They also wanted to get her something to sit on as she was fidgeting and would often get up and walk around.

Beginning of year 1 we were told she had some adhd traits because she was still struggling to stay still and not talk over teachers etc,

Beginning of year 2, she's now 6 (nearly a year younger than a lot of her class), her teacher told me she's doing brilliantly academically. I asked if she was still being disruptive and he was genuinely surprised by the question. I explained what we'd been told in year 1 and he said he had absolutely no worries. She does still get up for a wander but year 1 to year 2 is a big transition (lots of sitting) so he wasn't surprised.

What is going on at your friends school side awful. That poor boy. I don't know enough about SEN provision but somebody might need to remind the school he's just turned 4.

My daughter went to school having never studied phonics. She could count and write her first name but that was about it, what exactly are they expecting from him?!

I did private nursery to state primary school for DS with undiagnosed autism and it was a problem for us. DS had been well settled in a small private nursery who'd known him for years and none of us had any idea he had a problem. The transition to school was sharp, it was a huge step up for him, and DS couldn't handle it. He became extremely challenging and the school had no warning at all. The school did not love us for that! (But they did the right things, unlike your friend's school.) The school did say that if he'd been to their pre-school first they would have picked up his issues.

My DC was older and we were in Scotland so we had different options. But I would say to your friend, whatever she does, keep him on the pathway for assessments and support. Don't just assume he'll grow out of it, he may be young but unless he's the only 4 year old in the class they will be comparing his development to what's normal for his age.

And yes this does sound to me like an illegal exclusion. Could your friend consult IPSEA? www.ipsea.org.uk/ They have a phoneline plus good informaiton on their website. They're good on what's an illegal exclusion and what to do about it.

And with his sibling's seriously health issues the school really do need to step up and be supportive to her and her DC. That's an additional need in itself. Has she talked to the school about that?

to your friend and to you for supporting her.

Your poor friend! This might be impacting on his little brother too, it’s quite likely the difficulty leaving mum in the morning and asking for lots of hugs has something to do with the upset at home. School needs to show some compassion (and frankly, common sense).

Nobody at a school is qualified to officially diagnose autism.

My diagnosis (for which I need no qualifications) would be 'Little boy who is the youngest in his year group and they are measuring his progress without taking account of it'.

Haven't read all the posts but I'm not sure this is legal. My school would never get away with doing any of this. Every single child has to be included, even if it's to the child's detriment.

There's definitely a failure to acknowledge that a lot of his behaviour is age appropriate. Perhaps deliberately they aren't giving any allowance for it which is not on at all.

I'd still move to know which part of the (playing) curriculum he can't keep up with.

Your friend can request an EHCNA herself. She shouldn’t be put off from making the request by the school or anyone else saying George won’t get an EHCP. IPSEA and SOSSEN have lots of helpful information on their websites, including model letters to request an EHCNA. She should be careful with SENDIASS. Some are good but far too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies.

In the meantime, the school should not be informally excluding DS. That is unlawful. And a part time timetable should not be used to manage behaviour. Your friend refusing to allow the school to continue to get away with informal exclusion will a) provide her with evidence of unmet needs to support her pursuing additional support, b) forces the school to follow due process, c) limit the number of days the school can suspend for, and d) allows her to challenge any exclusion.

She should follow up all verbal conversations with emails to create a paper trail as evidence.

However, if your friend wishes for her DS to attend part time or not at all, she has the right to do that for now since he is not compulsory school age.

Separate to this, is George receiving any support related to his disabled sibling? Is he known to the local young carers service? Your friend may want to contact Sibs too.

Has your friend contacted Home Start to see if they can provide support? And have they had social care assessments?

Well there never will be enough evidence if they keep sending him home!

the school are behaving appallingly and will continue to do so as long as they get away with it. If I were the parent I would be telling them that he will attend school the same hours as every other child in his class. If the school needs support for him then they must apply for funding for this and they need to start gathering evidence for an ehcp.

in my view (I’ve fought for 3 EHCPs) there is little need for evidence at this stage. The assessment process (once an ehcp has been applied for) gathers the evidence but in order to be assessed for an ehcp the criteria for assessment is actually very low …

whether the young child has or may have special educational needs and
whether they may need special educational provision to be made through an ehc plan.

Im really surprised that nursery didn’t pick something up if the school are claiming to have so many issues.

I'm an ex teacher and usually sympathetic towards the school on these sorts of posts, but if I was your friend I would be looking for a different school for my DS (if that's possible - easy for me to say because I live in a city so have easy options!) The illegal exclusions, the lack a of collaborative approach and the judgements about her DS within days of starting school are all massive red flags IMO. Sorry she's having to put up with this 💐

(It may well be that her DS does have additional needs but the school's approach sounds awful.)

School referred dgs to speech therapy and onto autism pathway soon after he started reception. There had been no concerns at pre school. School were concerned that he had precocious speech, seemed anxious and wasn't aware when other children were being unkind to him. He is a summer baby too. Dd was upset but took him to speech therapy who saw no concerns agreeing that his speech was advanced but there were no comprehension or communication difficulties. Dd kept him on the pathway but it's a 3 year wait. Fast forward to year one and he is thriving, a different teacher and a calmer, quieter class and he's not anxious, has a lovely group of friends and he's happy and secure and loving school now. Who knows what the referral will lead to? School and dd have no concerns any longer, for him he needed to grow up a little bit I think.
Your friend should speak to GP and ask for a referral to a developmental paediatrician as school can raise concerns but they can't diagnose.

Was just going to say the same.

What they are doing isn't appropriate and they cannot proceed. Your friend should push back.

It sounds counter intuitive to exclude him if he's behind, surely he needs as much teaching time as possible to help him catch up? Are they really saying he's too disruptive in the class? It sounds odd to me.

Do school know about this? He could have regressed due to trauma rather than being autistic.

Sone asd kids can seem placid in some environments. Plus it may be that the private nursery didnt expect all kids to si for stories etc.
We had issues with dc1 at nursery, things like flooding the sinks to play. Or wanting to go outside or not come in. But school was a hugley different level. This was almost 10y ago and the school is rubbish with sen. She soent a lot of time out of class for not sitting. I think such a big class with 1-2 staff was too much with some other not well behaved other kids.
Personally im not against sen kids going part time but it should be while working towards keeping them calm and learning. There is 0 point being in school if school arent supoorting them and they get send out of the room or known as being naughty by other kids etc.

This is awful. My daughter was on the young side for starting school (scotland so cut-offs are different and we don't have 'reception') and although she has found some of the 'rules' more difficult than her peers and struggled socially etc, he teachers have met her at her level and it's never been an issue - she has been given a smaller role in the nativity but that's appropriate for where she is at. Obviously she is also behind some of her peers in terms of literacy etc because some of them were 5.5 when they started school and she was 4.5, nobody has flagged anything as an issue.

Similarly my middle child does have some SEN but has been supported fully and again, they have met him where he is at and supported him (and us) where it has been needed. There was a time he would start school on time, but they would take him to the nurture room for a while before he entered the classroom and do some quiet work in there with him first to get him settled. He was still in school full time but not straight into a busy classroom setting every day. This is how they can manage these things IF they have the staff and space. If thats not available at your friends son's school then she might want to look at moving him.

In scotland deferring a child is really really common, I know lots of people who have done it. Maybe it's different in England but here it normal for kids even with no SEN if they are going to be very young in the year. If it was me I would withdraw him and defer if she can, or just move schools completely now.

What I would say also is that he must be going through a lot if his sibling has been in hospital for months and the stress levels at home must be huge. This will likely be affecting his behaviour even if your friend doesn't think so. Add in starting school and being young for the year and there are a lot of factors at play which might be nothing to do with autism.

Although school shouldn't be diagnosing it wouldn't surprise me at all if this child has ASD. Going round hugging everyone at 4 whether they like it or not would be a good indicator of social behaviour that is 'off'. Also still having melt downs that he struggles to come out of. I would imagine that there's someone at school who really knows about ASD because a lot of teachers wouldn't pick it up based on that - my ds managed to get through 6 years of school before anyone questioned anything.

That said they are really wrong to exclude him informally/illegally. Here is some info from IPSEA on that:

www.ipsea.org.uk/pages/category/exclusion-from-school

No useful comment to add other than just how appalling that children get treated this way.

Slight tangent, but I cannot understand the hand-wringing about nativity plays. I've seen it on many threads lately.

I went to a normal state primary but it had a decent SEN unit so probably had more SEN children than most other schools. I have recently seen my mum's video of one of my nativities, and plenty of the SEN children were being notably disruptive, there were TAs on stage helping particular children, one child would hold up signs with her lines as she couldn't say them. It looked like chaos! But so lovely. I certainly remember having a good time as a child. I just can't understand who would want their child to have some perfectly choreographed nativity play at the expense of children with SEN :(

These aren't necessarily signs of autism, could easily just be that he needs time to settle into school especially being born late August that makes him almost a year younger than some classmates.
Although I suppose to a teacher with a class of 30 the kids with Sen would stick out a lot more in contrast to their classmates.

Ahh crikey I stopped at 'he only turned for at the end of August'.
Why, for heaven's sake did she not just send him next year?