To ask if people today don’t agree with ivf?!

[Yaerry]

or am I just naive? Watched the new documentary about Jean Purdy and I’m surprised there was so much push back at the time. It’s made me wonder if one day surrogacy will be more accepted? I thought ivf was just a standard thing now that wasn’t controversial.

Like abortion then.

I think part of the reason why mental ill health is so prevalent these days is that we do not have to (and therefore increasingly cannot) accept 'the reality of the situation'. We live in a culture where (we are told almost) everything can be bought on demand. When that turns out not to be true for whatever reason, we can't cope.

Not trying to call you out, @FeralWoman - I am glad you have your longed for child and hope you and your family are doing well.

Fertility treatment is not denying people life saving drugs, drug companies over charging for drugs that cost pennies to make, hospital trust mismanagement of funds, postcode lotteries and poor government support do - can find billions for a ppe contract at short notice but not for life saving treatments.

do you think that people should be treated for lung, liver and skin cancer because they were avoidable?

pre 1980 women used to stay in hospitals after having a baby for two weeks. They would attend parent craft classes and receive orange juice and fish oil postnatally.

Up until 2008 UCLH would keep parents in for four nights so mums had a chance to be looked after and shown how to breastfeed. On the 3rd night the midwives would send mum and dad out for dinner and look after the baby. This was all done on the nhs, the costs were always there to look after babies, now we get terfed out after four hours, shortest turnover from birth to discharge in Europe.

The nhs was initially designed to look after parents and I see ivf as an extension of that and would not begrudge anyone receiving treatment for it.

Agreed. And the when we come up against things we can’t change, we can’t cope. I think it starts incredibly young and applies in so many areas of life.

Yes, it did work, and I stopped feeling suicidal overnight. No issues with MN before or since (other than the usual ups and downs of life). Psychiatric help would have treated a symptom, and not the cause of my grief.

I saw this happen to a friend's family when we were 14. I knew adoption was not for me right then.

I worry about the long term side effects of the heavy hormone therapy that is necessary for the whole process on both the mother and the baby and the potential ramifications further down the line.

The first test tube baby is only 46.

And you can’t see how those changes might have been impacted by increasing demands on the NHS for all kinds of treatments that are not medically necessary?

I’m on the fence about surrogacy but accept it might be a last resort for some couples

I dont know anyone that has an ethical issue with iVF when used by women of child bearing age.

We're you not anxious about pro creating 'naturally' when you could have rescued some poor abandoned children?!? 🙄

Your statement seems black and white but do you really not allow for exceptions?

For example, do you have an issue with a lesbian couple that decides one of them will carry the other's biological child because they medically have the best chance of carrying a successful pregnancy (which is a real scenario for my neighbours)?

I fear the issue there is the cost of cancer meds that are hundreds of thousands if not millions. The drug companies have a monopoly and blackmail the nhs

IVF is a few thousand, it doesn’t really touch the service of the cost of cancer meds

I’m going to start by saying I’ve been through infertility. Years of wanting a baby and nothing happening. We were offered 1 fresh round of IVF on NHS. I got pregnant naturally the cycle before starting IVF.

Ok, so now my thing. I find this hard to talk about because even with the above (that is I KNOW how painful infertility is) people still come at me. So please be respectful.

I (as in ME and just ME) really struggled with the idea of IVF. In my mind I didn’t want to do it because I feared that baby wasn’t meant to be. I asked the doctor whether there was any evidence that IVF babies were less healthy than non IVF babies (he assured me there wasn’t) I felt like it was playing God almost.

My son was born with some health issues and I’m really pleased he wasn’t IVF. If he had been and had those health issues my mental health would have been shit. I don’t think anyone would have been able to convince me that his health issues weren’t down to the IVF.

I DO NOT think that people shouldn’t use IVF just because I struggled with it. This was very much MY feelings (which are valid) and not a reflection on other’s decisions.

I flatly refused to even consider it for a second child.

All this said, I’m not against IVF being available. I do think couples need to talk more about some of the emotional issues that can be at play though. I’m also against the exploitation that happens at some private IVF clinics.

surrogacy is completely different though. It is the buying and selling of humans. I also think intended parents are not given enough information about the ethical issues before going through with it.

It is a medical problem the WHO itself says that there needs to be wider access to fertility treatment

Millions of people face catastrophic healthcare costs after seeking treatment for infertility, making this a major equity issue and all too often, a medical poverty trap for those affected,” said Dr Pascale Allotey, Director of Sexual and Reproductive Health and Research at WHO, including the United Nations’ Special Programme of Research, Development and Research Training in Human Reproduction (HRP). “Better policies and public financing can significantly improve access to treatment and protect poorer households from falling into poverty as a result.”

I am a 32 year old who had unprotected sex for 9 years and had been referred to the fertility clinic at uclh before I fell pregnant naturally (still 5 weeks). I consider it a miracle and if it didnt happen now, it would be ivf or possibly no baby forever. Infertility is increasing at a rapid rate, I do think that in future maybe even up to 30% of children would be born via ivf. Mumsnet is also pro women getting an education, buying a house and building a career and marrying an established guy before having a baby (plus living with him pre ttc). All this only works for most women if there is access to affordable ivf. If not you are playing Russian roulette with your fertility esp with the increase in microplastics in our food and water/pollution. You can start a bit later if you are open to using ivf. Alternatively if you know you can't use ivf, you really do need to crack on and try to ttc in your 20s or at least at 31 or 32 particularly if you want multiples. That is a tight timeline for most women nowadays.

I mean I married straight out of university and still struggled. I started ttc officially at 30 because after the many years of unprotected sex I suspected I needed ivf. I could do that as I married at 22 and bought a london flat at 26. Many women don't marry or buy a home that early.

All of these changes have impacted the demand on NHS, and in turn the ability to treat medically necessary conditions because of the obligation to treat non medically necessary ones.

The ethical concerns of surrogacy and ivf only overlap in small ways. For example, I’m not convinced the use of donor eggs in ivf is ethical. The procedure for creation and harvesting is far too invasive.

if a couple are using their own eggs and possibly a donor sperm for ivf, I don’t see any real issues. At most it is similar to an adoption.

surrogacy on the other al hand requires the use of a woman’s body in a way that simply can’t be justified.

That's a shame. Petitioning for having info provided/laws to change would be a good course.
How do you know "several" people having done this?I've only come across one or two people in passing and no one I actually know.

I think there is a lot of waste in the nhs that has nothing to with treatments in terms of back office staffs and budgets. I think the nhs treat lots of medically avoidable issues related to smoking, drinking, obesity, do you think that treatment is not
medically necessary?

If you think my child is my possession, would you think it was reasonable for me to sell my two year old to someone else?

My DD isn't 'someone else's baby'. She's mine. She was mine from before she was born.

Children have, historically, not been raised by their biological parents particularly consistently - this is how human society has functioned, and I really don't believe for a moment it suddenly needs to change.

This kind of thing makes me really sad. infertility without IVF is worse than the treatment. That is why the treatment exists.

There is so much misinformation out there about how hard and gruelling IVF is (and I don’t discount that is the case for those it doesn’t work for) that people are so scared they don’t try or reach out for help and go through years of agony and a lifetime of heartbreak

My story is not dissimilar to yours except I didn’t get lucky and did go through with the IVF. I regret I didn’t try years earlier. I built it up in my mind so much and was so scared of it I didn’t really believe it would ever work, like a last ditch stand.
i even had some of the “awful” complications and felt blessed not hurt by them because it meant something might actually be happening and it was.

I believe it was Dr Robert Winston who said just because we can do something it doesn’t mean we should. He was talking about infertility and treatments and mentioned one case of a woman who kept losing her babies until there was intervention. She had her baby who had multiple conditions and only lived a few years. Nature was aborting those babies for a reason.

The quality of people’s lives would fall dramatically. Children walking around with broken arms, undiagnosed conditions. And yes this does happen in America. Poor people have very limited access to healthcare.

A hip replacement has become a routine procedure. Eg. It’s been done so often it is a practiced process. Nobody needing one sees it as routine! If it wasn’t treated it would eventually kill someone, or they themselves from the pain. And I hope for your sake that you never need one, or have to pay for one.

We pay taxes towards our own insurance within the NHS. Previous governments have kept tax down in order to win votes and have underfunded the NHS. This doesn’t mean we should race back to sub-standard healthcare.

I have family members who disagree with IVF and think it’s unnatural. I was so scared I wouldn’t be able to conceive myself as I know they wouldn’t have supported me through IVF. Or at least not with their whole heart.

I suppose for me a big part of it was that our ‘diagnosis’ was unexplained infertility. There was nothing to ‘fix’ as such and no closure either.

While it’s fertility treatment that implies there’s something to treat. There wasn’t for us. Everything worked but it wasn’t working … not sure if that makes sense.