To ask if people today don’t agree with ivf?!

[Yaerry]

or am I just naive? Watched the new documentary about Jean Purdy and I’m surprised there was so much push back at the time. It’s made me wonder if one day surrogacy will be more accepted? I thought ivf was just a standard thing now that wasn’t controversial.

Very interesting point. Lots of food for thought on this thread.

I sort of agree with those saying it shouldn't be available on the NHS but I was able to get pregnant naturally. If I hadn't and I'd been offered IVF on the NHS I'd have taken it so I'm being a massive hypocrite.

I’m not convinced the use of donor eggs in ivf is ethical. The procedure for creation and harvesting is far too invasive.
How is the process far too invasive? It's a surgical procedure to remove the eggs, which by nature is invasive. Creating the eggs is done using medication that is typically injected.
People self-inject medication for various reasons every day and sometimes for life. Egg donation isn't that.
Harvesting the eggs is done in 10-15 minutes with anaesthesia and sedation.
I'm trying to understand you... maybe you don't accept anything done to your own body? Dental work? Vaccines? Smear test? Could you clarify?

And in Ukraine,before the war there.

I think that IVF should be available for 3 rounds on the NHS. There are plenty of people that could afford to bring up a child but not on top of the expense of private IVF. Where I live there is no provision for IVF on the NHS and the birth rate has really fallen. I don’t agree that people should be penalised for having fertility problems but a smaller wallet. I do think there should be stringent checks and there must be certain thresholds you meet before you go through with it.

I understand the concerns about surrogacy but feel that some of it is over inflated. My friend was a surrogate for a lovely couple, the baby was completely biologically theirs. She has a great relationship with the family and expressed breast milk for a year - he is now a very delightful and well adjusted primary school child.

Sex selection IVF though? Absolutely gross (unless for very good reason eg. Severe genetic issues running through males/females in the family)

@Mumtobabyhavoc I think what they might be getting at is the difference in process for sperm vs egg donation.

sperm donation is a few mins in a locked room with porn and a cup. There are minimal risks to the donor of going through the process … indeed it’s one they might have done multiple times a week since adolescence.

Egg donation has much greater risks. Some of which can be fatal. In some cases these risks are not fully explained in advance. That brings up the question of informed consent.

If a lesbian woman needs IVF because she has fertility issues and insemination hasn't worked then fine as long as she uses her own eggs. I don't agree with a lesbian having IVF on the NHS just because she wants to carry her wife's biological baby.

I don’t know the documentary you’re talking about, but yes, things have certainly changed a lot since the 70s/80s in regards to lots of health conditions. IVF meant you were infertile, and there was a lot of shame attached to infertility, which I don’t actually think has changed massively when we look at donor eggs and sperm now. There are still lots of babies being born today whose parents aren’t their biological parents, but no one is talking about it because it’s something that people feel ashamed about or uncomfortable admitting.

But if you think in the 80s with the stigma around cancer or HIV. People wouldn’t even say the word cancer and people with cancer could be shunned because people almost felt they would get cancer just from being around someone with it. Never mind the fears of contracting HIV from sharing cutlery, etc. We have a lot more information at our fingertips these days online and people can factcheck, but we also have a lot more support for people dealing with once stigmatised health conditions, so there is a lot more openness. People are still a bit weird about IVF and infertility though, as well as things like cancer, etc.

Egg donation is a tricky one because it is difficult to be sure the doners are not in a vulnerable position.
IVF is not always easily available so some woman donate eggs to get a reduced cot round. I worry some might not be in a good place and have their head over a barrel

In that case they need therapy/counselling, ,not fertility treatment which may not work. Someone who may kill themself if they don’t have a baby is not going to make the best parent anyway. Said as someone who has experienced infertility and unsuccessful IVF.

Similar to my previous post. I worry the restrictions on embryo use could trap people in relationships they are no longer happy in. If you know breaking up would destroy your chances of being able to have children again and your frozen embryos it would make it very difficult to leave even if the relationship wasn’t going well

There is also the point that people are infertile for a reason nature wise. There is a reason two people cannot breed the same as any animal.

Please tell me you have never said this to anyone suffering from infertility.

I think that’s quite a callous thing to say tbh. Someone has said the difficulty of IVF/infertility made them feel suicidal and you suggest someone struggling this way wouldn’t be a great parent anyway? I’m glad you are so solid and well adjusted but everyone reacts to things differently.

I was suicidal when experiencing fertility issues, not because of infertility itself, but because it really felt like everywhere I turned no one gave a flying fuck. That is, unless you were willing throw a lot of money their way. It was lonely. It was hard to keep going.

and the stigma that went with it made it a lot worse!

I don’t think lesbians are allowed IVF on the NHS unless there are fertility issues such as that straightforward artificial insemination would not work.

You also don’t know that PP didn’t go through counselling but still felt that way?

It's not "natural." No medical treatment, intervention or assistance is.
But, thankfully, the advancements in medicine have given us medication to treat diabetes, high blood pressure, some cancers, arthritis and skin conditions like acne and psoriasis; surgeries for heart conditions and vascular conditions; organ removal and transplants; plastic surgery to correct physical deformities by birth or injury; orthopaedic surgery to fix hips and knees from accident or medical conditions; and so much more.

I wonder if all the other medical treatments are similarly unethical? What about cadaver donation? Tissue growth in lab for grafting? All very unnatural. It's quite subjective, really.

This is true (at least where I live)

If you heard that someone was breeding puppies and selling them straight from birth because some humans wanted to buy them, would that be acceptable to you?

We are, but the law changed quite recently, and is patchily applied. It's more you demonstrate that AI hasn't worked so far, too.

IVF and surrogacy are different species.

I totally support IVF. I’m appalled by surrogacy.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. My perspective is that I’ve worked as a doctor in the NHS for 33 years and I’ve seen many people with entirely self inflicted ailments, costing the NHS a fortune, with no ethical debates ever occurring. As well as needing IVF myself, I’ve seen patients becoming suicidal as a result of infertility. I recently saw a woman who had killed her baby because she interfered with her drug taking. No one would ever question her entitlement to NHS resources. I had a patient who was a paedophile, abused numerous young boys, and I saw him for his various medical problems before and after his conviction and prison time. He had lots of expensive drugs, surgery etc. My point is that it’s a very grey area, trying to decide which cases are worthy and which aren’t. Infertility is defined as a medical problem, it’s not a lifestyle choice, and as such I believe it should be treated as a medical problem on the NHS.

As I’ve said, I’ve been through it. There is nothing on this earth that can guarantee you a baby, and many people aren’t lucky enough for IVF to work but manage to come to terms with it.

You aren’t!!

Valid.

What about the person who chooses to be an organ donor because their child or other loved needs it to live; couldn't get an organ and died? That donor certainly carries trauma and would be consider vulnerable - yet admirable and selfless.

Why?

But managing to come to terms with it doesn’t mean other people would be a shitty parent for being so in despair wanting a child? They will likely come to terms with it eventually too, but feeling like that at the time doesn’t make the “less”.. that opinion just adds to stigma tbh