To ask if people today don’t agree with ivf?!

[Yaerry]

or am I just naive? Watched the new documentary about Jean Purdy and I’m surprised there was so much push back at the time. It’s made me wonder if one day surrogacy will be more accepted? I thought ivf was just a standard thing now that wasn’t controversial.

Wtf!? Are you seriously saying people shouldn't have children because they will die one day!?

Eh! You missed my point.

What odds were you given of your first IVF cycle working?

Yes, what is not legal is paying surrogates anything more than expenses. Also surrogacy agreements are not legally enforceable. Which means that the surrogate is the legal mother of the child, regardless of it’s genetic parentage, and can’t be forced to hand it over if she changes her mind.

Its interesting how the adults are always centred in discussions of donation. I completely agree with your point re egg donation can have health implications for the donor but it also has life-long implications for children born of donation. I was born by sperm donation and found out by chance in my 40's. I would say I am a pretty robust person mental health wise and usually roll with the punches. That knocked me for six and I could not look myself in the mirror. I also found out from a bit of research that my half sister who I had never met died of triple negative breast cancer (transmitted on my father's side). There was a huge risk that I would have had the faulty gene too (fortunately I did not but imagine if I had and metatastic breast cancer could have been prevented with additional screening).
Far more of the debate around donation should also centre around the children/people born from those donations. I wouldn't call for banning anything but I do think recipient parents should be screened and those that do not understand the necessity to tell their offspring early should not be allowed in the UK at least (hard to legislate if they go abroad as wealthy desperate people tend to do).

I agree with this. But I also think maternity services should be means tested. Why shouldn't I pay for the care I need to have children (whether that is to get pregnant or to successfully deliver the children) when I can?

I'm sorry you have been through this. It must have been so difficult to find this out in your 40s.

I do think that attitudes are changing to make the child's experience more centred though. We are currently looking at donors – we are only considering altruistic, ID release donors with a good medical history available. We are also planning to be very open with a potential child. I think all of these are things that put the child's interests first – it would be far "easier" or "more comfortable" to use a donor and then just act as if they never existed and forget about it. We are going about it the way we are because we want the child to be happy and to put their interests before our "comfort".

I believe as parents (of any child) it's really important to be open and empathetic (and – not in reference to your post at all! – empathy seems to be something sorely lacking on this thread..)

Are you stupid?

Means test maternity services, wtf.
Two of the most dangerous things you can do are be born and give birth.

The baby has zero income.

And only women give birth so it's a tax on women. Who've already paid tax to pay for the NHS in the first place.

What else are you going to means test? Heart attacks?
Stroke?
Broken leg?

Yes, and to balance it out if you look back at the thread, there was also a doctor agreeing with me.

👍

Im so sorry you experienced this!

I had to attend a counselling session prior to proceeding with donor conception- id be interested to know if there would have been follow up if I hadn’t given the ‘right’ answers .

my little one has known since birth since it’s always been something I’ve talked about openly and honestly - she’s quite proud of it. Thankfully everyone in her life is really supportive of us both (and having a therapist mum and half a dozen therapist ‘aunties’ probably helps! )

I really wish in general child mental health was a part of parenting courses alongside nappy changing and breastfeeding. Obviously totally impractical but how different our world would it be if all parents- regardless of routes to parenthood - had to be screened to ensure they were bringing up their child according to ‘best practice’ .

No, I don't think I'm stupid. Unless you define "stupid" as "disagrees with me", which I don't.

Why would I means test maternity services?
(1) Childbirth is predictable, even if conception comes as a surprise it is very rare (though I accept it happens) for anyone to not have some months' warning of the birth. It can - and perhaps should - be paid for by those who can
(2) I would means test the parents, not simply the mother. There would need to be a system to obtain money from unwilling fathers and/or to discount their income where they genuinely have no input (maybe no parental responsibility if you fail to contribute to the costs of medical care?) - but that is administrative detail, not principle
(3) Means testing is not charging everyone, it's charging those who can afford it. Of course nobody should be left without care in pregnancy, childbirth and postnatally. However, means testing wouldn't do that.
(4) If people had to pay for medical care, even from the NHS, this may well result in more private maternity options, other than the uber-expensive options available in London. I would strongly support some form of competition for the NHS (not only in maternity services - see further below), because this should improve service. And by service I mean people not being left with completely avoidable injuries and illnesses because of failures.

Of course, means testing might be administratively unworkable, but maternity services in this country are appalling. Something needs to be done. Some more money, and the fear of losing that money due to competition might assist with that.

FYI, I would means test other things. Joint replacements for one. Possibly some long term treatments (my cousin has just died following years of chemotherapy, which kept her alive - I am not sure that she shouldn't have been in her circumstances expected to contribute to the cost of that. I don't think she would have disagreed either).

Using the NHS is an appalling experience. My worst experiences have been in maternity. I would pay quite a lot to make that better. I would not expect anyone unable to pay to do so, and all emergency treatment should be free to everyone, at point of care and afterwards. But yes, if it resulted in a better system, I would be happy with appropriate means testing for lots of things.

OK your essentially saying privatise the NHS. Fair enough

I personally never want to be in a situation were you need to show your insurance certificate before you get in the door. Because that is exactly what will happen.

Maternity care will always be expensive because you have to have the specialists and equipment in case it goes wrong. Even with private midwives and home births it is extremely expensive because the insurance is so expensive.
So what you really mean is sub standard care options. And women birthing at hoem with medical help as they can not afford it.
And of course mothers would be denied medical help without insurance. How else do you think a profit making company operates? Oh sure you have no money or insurance but sure we will treat you for free!
My grandparents were young adults before the NHS. I know what it was like from them. They never saw the Dr for anything. Instead there were lots of home remedies, most of which did not work.

I defy anyone who says it’s unnatural to tell that to their daughter who desperately wants a child but can’t get pregnant.

For those that slam it down for being unnatural there is a massive dose of hypocrisy, judgment and ignorance on this subject. I would suggest you try having some empathy, integrity and common decency. You don’t need to experience something to get it. You can just think outside yourself.

It would then go to court.

Having children is certainly a lifestyle choice. And you can't possibly compare this to childbirth or maternity care, because in that situation a lack of support could be dangerous for the mother. No woman is going to be medically hurt because of a lack of ivf, but she may be without hospital care during birth. Contraceptives are much less expensive than ivf so again this is not a helpful comparison. And no - I never used the NHS for contraception or pregnancy related appointments, not that it's relevant.

Adding in, Have you ever sat at a parent's deathbed?, is really unnecessarily dramatic.

I'll take that as a no you haven't then.

So on a thread where people can be devastated about infertility, you think pointing out the fact this (I assume very young girl) had to watch her mother die is being "dramatic" wow.

You sure love to cherry pick and infer. Dry up.
You really are the worst sort of bully.

@Mumtobabyhavoc a bully for hoping people could acknowledge for just a second what this girl must've gone through? Ok then...

It has nothing to do with IVF btw, people are spectacularly missing the point there. I'd say it about any parent.

Then why bring it up as your example. FGS don't derail.

4 transfers and nothing is really tough. Sending love x

That is literally exactly not what I’m saying. I’m saying certain treatments should be means tested. No more no less. I would fight to the death to prevent charges on access to emergency care.

No, I’m not advocating for an insurance based system. I’m advocating for better services for all because those who can make a contribution do. Same service for all - some make an additional contribution. That’s it.

No wonder it’s impossible to have a sensible conversation about healthcare in this country.

Oh golly. You’ve been through a lot. IVF is so tough. Especially with your outcome. ❤️

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.