Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To have expected more in life from working to reach this salary?

1000 replies

grethrow · 22/11/2024 12:52

I’m early forties and earn 75k. I know this isn’t huge money but it’s well above average salaries in the uk. I worked hard to get to this point (I’m not saying people who earn less don’t work hard).

I guess along the way I always thought I would be able to have a really comfortable life on this salary. I have one ds who is 11 but his costs don’t really factor in much as his dad pays for most stuff (ds lives with me so dad pays a decent amount).

I assumed going on holiday would be easy but renting a cottage in Devon in a nice area for a week is around 1,500, then there’s travel costs and food etc when you’re there! Going abroad long haul is extortionate. I guess these things are just about doable for me but it’s not easy.

I am having a privileged whinge. I know that. But I do feel sometimes like maybe at 18 I shouldn’t have bothered. My parents had a similar income (taking into account inflation) and me and my brother both went to independent schools, grew up in a large home and parents had very nice cars. It wouldn’t be possible for me to go and buy a nice car outright. I know people have it much worse but I still feel cheated and like it is a slog for very little, fair of me to feel this? Do others feel this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 23/11/2024 11:26

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 11:20

No one said it didnt happen at all.

But I think that paying for childcare is much more common than having a grandparent do childcare.

Every single person I know is paying for childcare. A lot of the children's grandmmothers would be very old and unwell themselves for a start. As women are having children later.

My cousin aged 38 just had a baby. Her mother is 74. And her mother is frail herself. She has brittle bone disease. There is no way she would be able to look after a baby.

Edited

You said everyone with a child has to pay for childcare fees. Assuming you meant working parents, that's saying that full free family childcare doesn't happen at all. It does.

I suspect the commonest model is probably a mixture of paid and family. If everyone you know is working full time, paying for childcare and has very old unwell parents, you're probably in an area with quite a specific and unrepresentative demographic profile.

At the other end of the scale, in some areas grandparents in their 40s are completely normal. I have a friend who was 39! Being able to afford full time childcare rather than having to do opposite shifts with the other parent or drop out/reduce hours for a while due to costs is not a situation replicated across the whole population.

PlopSofa · 23/11/2024 11:27

ByHardyRubyEagle · 23/11/2024 10:43

Well unpopular opinion but those earning more than 50K don’t need child benefit. I know, ensue angry mumsnetters.

She said she doesn’t claim it…

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 11:33

PlopSofa · 23/11/2024 11:25

She said she doesn’t claim child benefit.

Well, exactly so she’ll have even less than two people earning £35k each. Even if she did claim, it would only be a tiny amount. The couple on £35k each would get the full amount.

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 11:36

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 23/11/2024 11:26

You said everyone with a child has to pay for childcare fees. Assuming you meant working parents, that's saying that full free family childcare doesn't happen at all. It does.

I suspect the commonest model is probably a mixture of paid and family. If everyone you know is working full time, paying for childcare and has very old unwell parents, you're probably in an area with quite a specific and unrepresentative demographic profile.

At the other end of the scale, in some areas grandparents in their 40s are completely normal. I have a friend who was 39! Being able to afford full time childcare rather than having to do opposite shifts with the other parent or drop out/reduce hours for a while due to costs is not a situation replicated across the whole population.

It's not unrepresentative at all . That mothers are older in a lot of places, and therefore grandparents are older.

All statistics online show that mothers are having babies at much older ages than they used to.

So older grandparents are statistically mkre common in the UK then young grandparents.

Check the stats.

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 11:37

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 11:16

But maybe it's the OPs fault that her lifestyle is not good.

What is she doing on 70 k!

My cousin is earning 25 k and is living very comfortably.

Well please share all your cousins outgoings including what she paid for her flat.

In the meantime, I will give you my own family example. Brother, teacher, single parent in the East Midlands, able to buy a lovely three bed detached house. If he lived in the area of the SE that I am in it would cost three times as much to buy the same house BUT he would be on exactly the same salary - same teacher pay scale So, he wouldn’t be able to buy it in the first place. In fact, he would struggle to buy a one bedroom flat.

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 11:40

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 11:37

Well please share all your cousins outgoings including what she paid for her flat.

In the meantime, I will give you my own family example. Brother, teacher, single parent in the East Midlands, able to buy a lovely three bed detached house. If he lived in the area of the SE that I am in it would cost three times as much to buy the same house BUT he would be on exactly the same salary - same teacher pay scale So, he wouldn’t be able to buy it in the first place. In fact, he would struggle to buy a one bedroom flat.

But that's exactly why people move for work.

They don't buy in an expensive area as they know it's a ridiculous idea.

I know teachers who have moved from London to live in Manchester. And they have bought a nice house in a surrounding town.

No one has to live in an expensive area.

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 11:40

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 11:37

Well please share all your cousins outgoings including what she paid for her flat.

In the meantime, I will give you my own family example. Brother, teacher, single parent in the East Midlands, able to buy a lovely three bed detached house. If he lived in the area of the SE that I am in it would cost three times as much to buy the same house BUT he would be on exactly the same salary - same teacher pay scale So, he wouldn’t be able to buy it in the first place. In fact, he would struggle to buy a one bedroom flat.

I've asked the OP to share her outgoings. And she still hasn't.
I can't understand what she is doing with her net income.

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 11:43

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 11:40

But that's exactly why people move for work.

They don't buy in an expensive area as they know it's a ridiculous idea.

I know teachers who have moved from London to live in Manchester. And they have bought a nice house in a surrounding town.

No one has to live in an expensive area.

But single parents cannot just always move to a completely different area. They need to ensure that their child maintains a relationship with the other parent.

Also, they may have other vulnerable family locally that they need to support.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 23/11/2024 11:43

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 11:36

It's not unrepresentative at all . That mothers are older in a lot of places, and therefore grandparents are older.

All statistics online show that mothers are having babies at much older ages than they used to.

So older grandparents are statistically mkre common in the UK then young grandparents.

Check the stats.

Which stats do you think show that elderly and ill grandparents of childcare aged DC, which is what you specified, are representative of the whole population? A link would be helpful.

ONS said the average age of first grandparents in the UK is 65. That's a full decade younger than the 74 year old with brittle bones you specified.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingthroughmodernlife/2024-04-08

Within this average, it must surely be obvious that there's a massive spectrum. And we know that millions of grandparents are providing childcare. Quite apart from anything else, there's substantial cultural variation within the UK. You're going to get very different answers from communities where multi generational living is more common, for example.

Milestones: journeying through modern life - Office for National Statistics

Article exploring the age by which we hit key life milestones, and how that has changed over time

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingthroughmodernlife/2024-04-08

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2024 11:58

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 10:55

The point that I have been making all through this thread is that people are quick to point out to some earning more than them that the higher earner is much better off but that isn’t always the case as it depends on personal circumstances. For example, some people have social housing. I am not against that by the way, I think there should be much more of it. I have just seen someone on a local Facebook page advertising a social housing swap. She pays £620 per month for a large three bed detached house. To rent the same privately would be £1800 plus around here. So someone on a much lower income in the social housing could have an equal (or greater) amount of disposable income than someone in a private rent. But there are still people on here shouting that, for example, someone is rich because they earn more than £50k. Well, no they are not if they are paying expensive rent/mortgage and/or childcare.

This is my point.

People are aware of the difference and it's something that's driving up resentment and social tensions if someone is seen to 'unfairly' be allocated social housing. (See issues over migrants).

Certainly one of my friends has told me how much her social rent is and is eligible for various benefits because she's a single mother working part time. I can work out what others are roughly paying in mortgage from bits they have said in passing and I've a fair idea of what they earn as a couple. So I have a general ballpark idea of finances for both. It's not favourable to the couple who work shifts and own a house in terms of disposable income. The single mother is also able to transfer her tenancy to her daughter if she wishes if the daughter is living there so in terms of owning the house the difference is somewhat negligible in real terms over a long period of time.

It doesn't make sense in many ways. The single mother arguably has greater financial security in many respects.

Then you compare that to a high single earner household. Child benefits aren't paid, the taxation allowances are unfavorable (because two lower incomes have double the tax free threshold). They pay higher rate of tax. They have less holidays for one person to cover school holidays (ultimately two parents can cover school holidays better if they need to), so they need more childcare.

Even more pervasively, you have issues where doctors who are very high earners, are willing to do extra hours but because of tax band thresholds and impacts on childcare allowances they are refusing to do it because financially it would make them worse off. Which given the waiting lists isn't helpful to anyone. (BIL is in this exact scenario so I a know this issue is a very real one). How much does this impact on the ability of others awaiting care and their ability to work/claim benefits or sick pay?!

It is unfair on a lot of levels. I don't know how you make it fairer without particularly penalising families either though. Perhaps looking at radical solutions like flat rate taxation would help.

The point is that a higher before tax income doesn't mean a higher disposable income compared to others in different scenarios. All of these families could be living frugally and in properties of a similar size in the same area - but be paying wildly different amounts according to whether they were in social housing, privately renting or owned.

I think the expectation of lifestyle according to the social status of your job, isn't unfair to have given how you understood the world as a child because these housing cost differences and taxation structures were not distorting disposable incomes to this degree. If you had a high paying job, you had a certain standard of living. Now it's very different and your aspirations don't match the reality.

This is a different point to saying "I'm poor and struggling". It's saying expectations are not meeting reality and that sometimes it really doesn't pay to work.

This is hammering UK productivity rates all over the place. It's affecting motivation to work across the board at multiple levels of income. That has to have an impact on our GDP. Which in turn affects how much the country makes as a whole.

I think it's a really difficult subject, with little real understanding. But it's a right mess and it needs sorting out somehow. God knows how.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 23/11/2024 12:01

The point is that a higher before tax income doesn't mean a higher disposable income compared to others in different scenarios.

This is what it all boils down to really. And it wouldn't matter so much if it were just something people bickered about on MN. But it's much worse than that. Impacts on productivity when we can ill afford it, and has the potential to get a lot worse.

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2024 12:18

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 23/11/2024 12:01

The point is that a higher before tax income doesn't mean a higher disposable income compared to others in different scenarios.

This is what it all boils down to really. And it wouldn't matter so much if it were just something people bickered about on MN. But it's much worse than that. Impacts on productivity when we can ill afford it, and has the potential to get a lot worse.

Absolutely.

The two biggest factors here are the tax band thresholds/ the thresholds you receive various payments or benefits at and the cost of housing.

It is not so much your lifestyle choices.

There's lots of people who don't understand stuff like child benefit stop being paid in full at a certain threshold. But a two income family with a higher household income would still get those payments. (They have recently changed this to try and adjust for this disparity, but the OP is one of those who would be impacted by this issue negatively as a single parent).

So family A - two parents both earning £35k have £10k* each tax free PLUS child benefit in full. And they have better ability to cover school holidays with two parents getting holiday time.

Whilst family B - like the OP, were earning £70k on one income only gets £10k*, pays higher rate tax and didn't get the child benefit in full and has less ability to cover school holidays so needs more paid childcare.

Family A were already significantly better off.

(*I can't remember the exact threshold point, this figure is for illustration purposes only).

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:30

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 11:43

But single parents cannot just always move to a completely different area. They need to ensure that their child maintains a relationship with the other parent.

Also, they may have other vulnerable family locally that they need to support.

You said they need to make sure the child maintains a relationship with the other parent.

In a lot of single parent cases -the child doenst even have any contact at all with the father. Because the father has refused to know the child. So the mother can live wherever she wants.

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:31

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 23/11/2024 11:43

Which stats do you think show that elderly and ill grandparents of childcare aged DC, which is what you specified, are representative of the whole population? A link would be helpful.

ONS said the average age of first grandparents in the UK is 65. That's a full decade younger than the 74 year old with brittle bones you specified.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/milestonesjourneyingthroughmodernlife/2024-04-08

Within this average, it must surely be obvious that there's a massive spectrum. And we know that millions of grandparents are providing childcare. Quite apart from anything else, there's substantial cultural variation within the UK. You're going to get very different answers from communities where multi generational living is more common, for example.

What millions of grandparents are caring for grandchildren. Are you just pulling that out of your own head.

I don't know of of a single child that is looked after by grandparents.

Every single young child that I know, is sent to nursery. Not one of them is looked after by a grandparents.

And also the grandparent being old and ill is just one reason why mothers don't give their children to be looked after by their grandma.

One of the other big reasons- is that a lot of people wouldn't put that huge responsibility on a grandparent.

They would think it's selfish and It's not a nice thing to do.

Why should a grandparent be looking after a child. They have already brought up a child themselves earlier on.. it's not fair to lumber them with another baby later in their life.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 23/11/2024 12:36

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:31

What millions of grandparents are caring for grandchildren. Are you just pulling that out of your own head.

I don't know of of a single child that is looked after by grandparents.

Every single young child that I know, is sent to nursery. Not one of them is looked after by a grandparents.

And also the grandparent being old and ill is just one reason why mothers don't give their children to be looked after by their grandma.

One of the other big reasons- is that a lot of people wouldn't put that huge responsibility on a grandparent.

They would think it's selfish and It's not a nice thing to do.

Why should a grandparent be looking after a child. They have already brought up a child themselves earlier on.. it's not fair to lumber them with another baby later in their life.

Edited

It was in the Age UK research I linked to earlier.

Speaking of pulling things out of arses, where are the stats showing that the elderly, ill grandparents you know who are unable to provide childcare are representative of the entire population and how does this fit with the evidence I've linked to? You said check the stats, so come on.

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 12:40

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:30

You said they need to make sure the child maintains a relationship with the other parent.

In a lot of single parent cases -the child doenst even have any contact at all with the father. Because the father has refused to know the child. So the mother can live wherever she wants.

Oh come on, there are an awful lot that do, many parents have 50:50 care. In any event it’s not realistic for huge numbers of people in London and the SE to just move to a completely different part of the country. And I say that as a Northerner who did move to a different part of the country.

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 12:43

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:31

What millions of grandparents are caring for grandchildren. Are you just pulling that out of your own head.

I don't know of of a single child that is looked after by grandparents.

Every single young child that I know, is sent to nursery. Not one of them is looked after by a grandparents.

And also the grandparent being old and ill is just one reason why mothers don't give their children to be looked after by their grandma.

One of the other big reasons- is that a lot of people wouldn't put that huge responsibility on a grandparent.

They would think it's selfish and It's not a nice thing to do.

Why should a grandparent be looking after a child. They have already brought up a child themselves earlier on.. it's not fair to lumber them with another baby later in their life.

Edited

Well I know plenty who do look after their grandkids but of course you are right and I am wrong…

Anyway, here’s an article about it

www.informationnow.org.uk/article/grandparent-issues/

Roarsomemum · 23/11/2024 12:47

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2024 11:58

This is my point.

People are aware of the difference and it's something that's driving up resentment and social tensions if someone is seen to 'unfairly' be allocated social housing. (See issues over migrants).

Certainly one of my friends has told me how much her social rent is and is eligible for various benefits because she's a single mother working part time. I can work out what others are roughly paying in mortgage from bits they have said in passing and I've a fair idea of what they earn as a couple. So I have a general ballpark idea of finances for both. It's not favourable to the couple who work shifts and own a house in terms of disposable income. The single mother is also able to transfer her tenancy to her daughter if she wishes if the daughter is living there so in terms of owning the house the difference is somewhat negligible in real terms over a long period of time.

It doesn't make sense in many ways. The single mother arguably has greater financial security in many respects.

Then you compare that to a high single earner household. Child benefits aren't paid, the taxation allowances are unfavorable (because two lower incomes have double the tax free threshold). They pay higher rate of tax. They have less holidays for one person to cover school holidays (ultimately two parents can cover school holidays better if they need to), so they need more childcare.

Even more pervasively, you have issues where doctors who are very high earners, are willing to do extra hours but because of tax band thresholds and impacts on childcare allowances they are refusing to do it because financially it would make them worse off. Which given the waiting lists isn't helpful to anyone. (BIL is in this exact scenario so I a know this issue is a very real one). How much does this impact on the ability of others awaiting care and their ability to work/claim benefits or sick pay?!

It is unfair on a lot of levels. I don't know how you make it fairer without particularly penalising families either though. Perhaps looking at radical solutions like flat rate taxation would help.

The point is that a higher before tax income doesn't mean a higher disposable income compared to others in different scenarios. All of these families could be living frugally and in properties of a similar size in the same area - but be paying wildly different amounts according to whether they were in social housing, privately renting or owned.

I think the expectation of lifestyle according to the social status of your job, isn't unfair to have given how you understood the world as a child because these housing cost differences and taxation structures were not distorting disposable incomes to this degree. If you had a high paying job, you had a certain standard of living. Now it's very different and your aspirations don't match the reality.

This is a different point to saying "I'm poor and struggling". It's saying expectations are not meeting reality and that sometimes it really doesn't pay to work.

This is hammering UK productivity rates all over the place. It's affecting motivation to work across the board at multiple levels of income. That has to have an impact on our GDP. Which in turn affects how much the country makes as a whole.

I think it's a really difficult subject, with little real understanding. But it's a right mess and it needs sorting out somehow. God knows how.

This

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 12:53

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:31

What millions of grandparents are caring for grandchildren. Are you just pulling that out of your own head.

I don't know of of a single child that is looked after by grandparents.

Every single young child that I know, is sent to nursery. Not one of them is looked after by a grandparents.

And also the grandparent being old and ill is just one reason why mothers don't give their children to be looked after by their grandma.

One of the other big reasons- is that a lot of people wouldn't put that huge responsibility on a grandparent.

They would think it's selfish and It's not a nice thing to do.

Why should a grandparent be looking after a child. They have already brought up a child themselves earlier on.. it's not fair to lumber them with another baby later in their life.

Edited

And in case you didn’t want to read it, here are the stats from the article I shared:

In the past two generations, the number of children being cared for by their grandparents has increased substantially from 33% to 82%.

Debate: Childcare - 13th Sep 2021

Mon 13th Sep 2021 - Commons - Childcare debate

https://www.parallelparliament.co.uk/debate/2021-09-13/commons/westminster-hall/childcare

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:59

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 12:40

Oh come on, there are an awful lot that do, many parents have 50:50 care. In any event it’s not realistic for huge numbers of people in London and the SE to just move to a completely different part of the country. And I say that as a Northerner who did move to a different part of the country.

It is realistic. Alot of people do it.
Loads of people move to different areas.

In my workplace I'm working with
Three people who moved from London because it's cheaper in this area. And that's on one Small team.

Loads of people move away from their home town. I'd say it's not that common for people to live in the same area all their lives these days. Everyone moves around

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 13:02

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 12:53

And in case you didn’t want to read it, here are the stats from the article I shared:

In the past two generations, the number of children being cared for by their grandparents has increased substantially from 33% to 82%.

It's not that deep Boohoo76.

We've talked about grandparents enough. I'm not arguing about it anymore.

My original point was: someone said the OP had to pay childcare fees on a 70k salary.

And I wrote sure everyone has to pay childcare fees, and many people are on a lesser salary than 70K

I didn't mean that every single person with a child in the UK has to pay childcare fees.

I will write it this way instead then:

"Lots of people have to pay childcare fees in the UK, and many of them earn less money than the OP".

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 13:13

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 13:02

It's not that deep Boohoo76.

We've talked about grandparents enough. I'm not arguing about it anymore.

My original point was: someone said the OP had to pay childcare fees on a 70k salary.

And I wrote sure everyone has to pay childcare fees, and many people are on a lesser salary than 70K

I didn't mean that every single person with a child in the UK has to pay childcare fees.

I will write it this way instead then:

"Lots of people have to pay childcare fees in the UK, and many of them earn less money than the OP".

Yes, many people are on salaries less than £70k …. But many people have social housing and/or get UC support with their childcare fees. Is that not a fact?

Have a read of Redtoothbush’s post. It explains the point clearly.

WhereverElse2019 · 23/11/2024 13:15

75k is a very good salary IMO. DHs and I'm COMBINED income is about that and we live relatively comfortably. But of course we don't know your outgoings or other expenses.

Boohoo76 · 23/11/2024 13:18

Lallydallydune · 23/11/2024 12:59

It is realistic. Alot of people do it.
Loads of people move to different areas.

In my workplace I'm working with
Three people who moved from London because it's cheaper in this area. And that's on one Small team.

Loads of people move away from their home town. I'd say it's not that common for people to live in the same area all their lives these days. Everyone moves around

No, it’s not a realistic. For a start, you’d just move the high housing (and childcare) cost somewhere else. Also, London and the SE need teachers, nurses, paramedics, police officers etc….and that’s before you even start looking at personal circumstances.

And I’m quite aware that people move around (I’ve done so myself) but it doesn’t resolve the large scale problem of unaffordable housing in some parts of the country.

Devonisheaven · 23/11/2024 13:38

The more people who move away from the South East the better it will be for the country as a whole, the wealth disparity will be spread more equally and become less London centric.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.