How awful that much-loved 30-year-old son cut all contact

[soupsetpleasehelp]

I'm actually writing as I have a very, dear old friend whose DS has completely cut her off. He is in his early 30s and he grew up between his parents (in a different country so no risk that this is outing) after his dad left the mum, shared contact which is common over there. The dad has since then had numerous relationships, and was horrible towards my friend in the early days, and wouldn't provide enough economic support etc. All the main care really came from my friend.

Anyhow, she was always extremely close to her son and was (is) the most warm, loving mum (person) you could imagine. Her son was always her first priority (but I wouldn't say he was spoilt) and we, her friends, always used to meet up with him and he was super cuddly and loving with his mum. No wonder, she was always very encouraging. However, over the last few years he's gone into modelling and has had a few girlfriends, the most recent one who is from a wealthy family.

My friend's son has slowly cut contact from last Xmas until a hard cut off earlier this year. He kept bringing up old (what I would have considered normal experiences) from when he was a child, when he felt she didn't meet his needs with regards to taking him e.g. to the doctors immediately after a fall (she did the next day when he complained of more pain, he initially said it was OK) and he had a fracture. Well, I'm sure lots of parents would have been the same. She is the most far from neglectful you could imagine, a wonderful person.

My friend has taken onboard that perhaps she and her parents at times talked about her ex husband (the father) in not too rosy a terms but I don't think it was a bad case of it at all, just a few occasions (tbh we all knew how awful the father was to my friend).

I wonder at times whether he due to mental health issues is gaslighting his mum, and now that he is in the modelling world and with rich girlfriend and parents, he somehow is embarrassed about his mum (who is very overweight and lives in a small flat) and that this has created some sort of dissonance which have led him to almost create false memories of how awful she was when he was growing up.

I hate seeing my friend upset and I would like to offer to write a letter to the son (and perhaps to his girlfriend and her parents as they only have his word) as I know both my friend and remember seeing her son grow up from 0-5, then seeing them regularly almost every year until he was in his late teens/early 20s. She honestly is a natural with kids and the kindest friend.

I would like to hear from all of you out there that have been affected by this either as the person being cut off, or the person dropping contact. What would be the best way to approach this letter?

We are really talking past each other now if the OP wants to be discussing whether ND/NT influences eldercare issues or elder abandonment generally while the majority of posters are talking about estrangement for cause/self protection.

I got my start studying inheritance and family struggles in a South Asian context before I became a therapist. Pre industrialization families routinely structured themselves to maintain control over adult married children and grandchildren in order to manage the elder years as nd parental decline. That is what love, emotional and physical coercion, and inheritance are for in the premodern family.

Now people have a choice as to whether they will put up with bad treatment and still loyally serve. And the state steps in with carers, adult services, the NHS etc…to handle those who have outlived or lost family caregivers.

Its not oretty and I, personally, still honor and care for family members who are wuite distant or who I don’t care for personally. But I don’t judge other people for refusing this archaic burden.

How is her situation giving you stress?

Feeling "stressed" about her situation is different to going somewhere and being constantly undermined or being constantly compared to the golden child or Mrs X's eldest or being the constant butt of "family jokes" and "pranks".

I will continue to support my friend even though they are unable see the situation that they are in, because they are my friend and because they need support.

As I said, I wasn't referring to situations that you mentioned there. But I have friends who have dropped the friend I mentioned because she's always wallowing about unfairness and with massive FOMO.

That's what I meant. Dropping her, in my view, at a drop of a hat.

This is not something I think would have happened 20 years ago.

No one should have to put up with abusive behaviour , but some degree of discomfort, hurt even, inconvenience , conflict, compromise.. these are all part of human relationships

They are part of human relationships, but we also shouldn't be judging someone for drawing a line and putting up boundaries to protect themselves when "discomfort, hurt even, inconvenience , conflict" become too much.

What are these sacrifices?

As a parent, you choose to have children. Your children need to be looked after when they are little as they can't do it for themselves. If you choose to spend money or time on them, beyond basic food and clothing and sufficient for emotional wellbeing, that's your choice.

Why is a child obligated to their parent for making these "sacrifices", all of which the parent chose to do, and which the child had no say in?

May I ask if you have children or grandchildren?

I only ask as I think once we have our own children we see this relationship between parent/child in a very different light.

I always thought my mum was a wonderfully warm and supportive mum but I appreciated her individual, every day support much more when I had my own kids. At the time, I don't think I even gave it a thought.

But it entirely depends on the context doesn’t it?
Some expectations we have of others are entirely unreasonable and we should judge people for casting others aside because they have failed to fulfil our every whim. We need to have social norms that discourage such behaviour- this is the fabric of society and the social bonds that hold us together. We all depend on these .

I think this is such a uniquely contemporary western viewpoint and it’s so toxic.

I don’t know where to start. How about- Elderly people also have care needs and they also didn’t ask to be born!

Why should it depend on context?
Why should you be judging a person that is different from you for not having the same mental fortitude?
People are different and there are limits to how much they can put up with without it effecting their own wellbeing.

As for parents "sacrificing" things for their children, that goes with the job when you decided to produce another life. And some parents are frankly shit at it.

First, many thanks to @NoisyDenimShaker for such a beautiful and generous rereading of the thread.

Second, many thanks to everyone, and I do mean everyone, for being so open and gifting us all with your stories and experiences of your own family struggles.

Third:I really just wish we could “judge not” of other’s experiences and actions.

I mean: I am a judgmental bitch by temperament and on behalf of abused and neglected men, women, and children I am quick with an LTB here on mumsnet.

But the fact if the matter is we don’t know why someone choses not to accept a given burden. But if they can’t they can’t. No point whining or grieving it. People do default on work, friends, and family. As OP pointed out upthread there can be a narcissistic parent and their can be a narcissistic child generation. Absolutely! I see it in therapy all the time—not the narcissist because they seldom manage therapy but the people they hurt and the relatives they suck dry.

But our condemnation or disapprobation doesn’t affect them at all. They don’t care. And it does create splash damage for those struggling to recognize that they are being used and abused in a relationship. It is not for outsiders to tell anyone that they need to walk that extra mile for someone else. If this poster or that pister chose to sacrifice themselves to maintain a problematic relationship that was, perhaps, a good choice for them but it doesn’t have any force when applied as a general principle. And it can be very hurtful for people in struggle to hear that this or that one repeatedly insist they didn’t try hard enough to reconcile.

And it can be very hurtful for people in struggle to hear that Tandora or Error repeatedly insist they didn’t try hard enough to reconcile.

we haven’t done this though. We have made no comment on the particular situations of any particular others. Our viewpoints our valid. This discussion is valid and important. Life hurts. We aren’t entitled in life to protection from any and every kind of hurt.

Yes, I have adult children.

Having my own children certainly made me see the relationship between parent/child in a different light.

It cemented my view that my parents weren't as great as they thought they were, because they'd failed to do so many things that I did without a second thought with my own children, and without expecting their eternal gratitude.

I don't consider anything I have done for my children as a sacrifice - it was all freely given. I certainly don't expect them to owe me in future life for things they had no say in.

In western society we have systems in place to support our elderly people (including those who don't have children).

There is a (generally) a large expanse of years between a child being young enough to need someone else to look after them, and a parent needing elderly support.

If all the parent has done is bring the child up to age 18, why should the child be the one obliged to support their care needs? What "sacrifices" has the parent really made?

In families where a close and mutually loving and supportive relationship has formed over the 20/30/40 years between the child reaching 18 and the parent requiring care, then IME the child generally wants to help.

Is it toxic to say that if you don't show anyone any love or care, that you can't expect the same thing back?

we haven’t done this though. We have made no comment on the particular situations of any particular others. Our viewpoints our valid. This discussion is valid and important. Life hurts. We aren’t entitled in life to protection from any and every kind of hurt.

Are we going to keep pretending that all these windy statements of principle and condemnation of “easily influenced “ shallow people who are bad therapists, or bad children or grandchildren, who don’t empathize with their depressed mothers or sorrowing elders, or fomo friends, are not condemnations of other poster’s experiences and by extension other posters? I mean: obviously you are going to keep pretending that but you are simply ignoring the way arguments and discussions move.

We may not be "entitled in life to protection from any and every kind of hurt."
but we can take steps to protect ourselves from whatever hurt that we want to for whatever reason that we want to and we should be able to do so without it being considered "toxic".

Of course, if it's just the bare minimum.

In my friend's case - to get back on the original quandary - this has not been the case. Her son would come to her with al his problems and issues, whether to do with a dog that he and gf adopted, to queries about cooking (she's a great cook), work concerns, gf concerns...

I'm so sorry that you had such a shitty pair of parents. Glad you have found peace.

Pretending?
😡

I absolutely am not commenting on the personal situation of any poster on this thread. Why on earth would I do that? I know absolutely nothing about them or their personal situation.

This discussion is valid and important. Life hurts. We aren’t entitled in life to protection from any and every kind of hurt.

Also: this rather gives the game away. Not that you don’t know your repeated statements are hurtful but that you don’t care because hurt, and specifically “protection from any and every kind of hurt” is not an “entitlement.”

But of course! Feel free! But don’t pretend you don’t know what you are doing.

And thanks for adding “windy” to your list of disparaging remarks about my contributions to this thread. So far we have “odd”, “funny” , “windy” , lacking in “experience”, “insight” and “grasp”. I’m sure I’ve missed more.
For someone calling for less judgement , and accusing me of “pretence”, you have certainly been quite pointed and personal in many of your direct comments to me.

I long ago said that I totally understood why posters find this discussion difficult and triggering (I myself have too). But that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be had. This conversation is valid and important. I stand by that. None of that implies I don’t care.

I have no game, and am fully sincere, but I don’t see that I should have to defend myself .so I don’t know why I’m getting dragged into that tbh.

No one is telling you you can’t have this discussion! You are not being stopped from arguing vociferously for your pount of view.

The most people have tried to say is that your repeated posts remind people of the soul sucking experience of trying to be heard as they got out of abusive situations. Does that hurt you? Isn’t that just part of the “life hurts get over it” attitude you display towards other posters ?

Your argument isn’t novel we get it its not surprising—its actually quite typical for abused children and specifically people who have been abused but decided to reconcile. The choice you have made has to be rationalized and valorized snd applauded because otherwise its uncomfortable. On the drama triangle you chose to be the heroic rescuer of your mother. And you think the ones who make a different choice are choosing to be persecutors of their elders.

But that is not correct. An abused person who removes from a relationship is not in the triangle. They are not abusing their abuser. They are not playing this game at all.

The most people have tried to say is that your repeated posts remind people of the soul sucking experience of trying to be heard as they got out of abusive situations

I understand.

No one is telling you you can’t have this discussion

I thought you were trying to say that it was wrong for us to speak as we were because we were hurting others. And asked for us to stop?

On the drama triangle you chose to be the heroic rescuer of your mother.

I think I will disengage from the personal comments at this time.

Often the less favoured child will hang around to give care in the hope of finally being loved and appreciated and 'good enough'. IME that never happens...

You so often hear of Scapegoat holding vigil at the deathbed while Mummy says 'Where's GoldenChild?'

Is it painful to open up a personal history of suffering and then have it commented upon by strangers and referred to as an object lesson or for analytic purposes?

OK then.

I agree with this.