How awful that much-loved 30-year-old son cut all contact

[soupsetpleasehelp]

I'm actually writing as I have a very, dear old friend whose DS has completely cut her off. He is in his early 30s and he grew up between his parents (in a different country so no risk that this is outing) after his dad left the mum, shared contact which is common over there. The dad has since then had numerous relationships, and was horrible towards my friend in the early days, and wouldn't provide enough economic support etc. All the main care really came from my friend.

Anyhow, she was always extremely close to her son and was (is) the most warm, loving mum (person) you could imagine. Her son was always her first priority (but I wouldn't say he was spoilt) and we, her friends, always used to meet up with him and he was super cuddly and loving with his mum. No wonder, she was always very encouraging. However, over the last few years he's gone into modelling and has had a few girlfriends, the most recent one who is from a wealthy family.

My friend's son has slowly cut contact from last Xmas until a hard cut off earlier this year. He kept bringing up old (what I would have considered normal experiences) from when he was a child, when he felt she didn't meet his needs with regards to taking him e.g. to the doctors immediately after a fall (she did the next day when he complained of more pain, he initially said it was OK) and he had a fracture. Well, I'm sure lots of parents would have been the same. She is the most far from neglectful you could imagine, a wonderful person.

My friend has taken onboard that perhaps she and her parents at times talked about her ex husband (the father) in not too rosy a terms but I don't think it was a bad case of it at all, just a few occasions (tbh we all knew how awful the father was to my friend).

I wonder at times whether he due to mental health issues is gaslighting his mum, and now that he is in the modelling world and with rich girlfriend and parents, he somehow is embarrassed about his mum (who is very overweight and lives in a small flat) and that this has created some sort of dissonance which have led him to almost create false memories of how awful she was when he was growing up.

I hate seeing my friend upset and I would like to offer to write a letter to the son (and perhaps to his girlfriend and her parents as they only have his word) as I know both my friend and remember seeing her son grow up from 0-5, then seeing them regularly almost every year until he was in his late teens/early 20s. She honestly is a natural with kids and the kindest friend.

I would like to hear from all of you out there that have been affected by this either as the person being cut off, or the person dropping contact. What would be the best way to approach this letter?

@SerafinasGoose
I actually agree with your paragraph about the futility of apportioning blame and it not being possible to hold a person in relationship against their will.
I very much agree that the only person's behaviour we have control over is our own. I just seem to have noticed more of the posts that were projecting and making assumptions.
I do think it's fair to discuss societal influences which partially shape individual behaviour.

Very selective quoting here. Four words from a post which explicates the reasons in some detail. It's disingenuous, but on this occasion I'll bite.

I wasn’t “selective quoting” I was responding to the part of your post which I found most crucial - I had something to contribute to. I found your post interesting. I’m interested in engaging in a respectful productive discussion. You seem to be taking offence and assuming I want to point score?

The point being made here - which was as clear as day - is that apportioning blame is not only unhelpful but futile. We don't control others' behaviour or have jurisdiction over their decisions.

I understood your point and it was clear. My point was that this is itself a very “individualist” analysis. In fact our individual decisions are not made in a vacuum and are shaped by social forces/ norms/ organisation. And this is why discussing these issues is far from “futile”, these very discussions are partially what shapes how family relationships are constituted, maintained or dissolved.

@himyf exactly. The parent child relationship is unique in this way. Most relationships can be seen as a (hopefully) fairly equal contract that either side can end if they choose.
children did not choose to be born, they are helpless and vulnerable for a very long time, and therefore there is no ‘contract’.
so of course this relationship is not the same as those between two adults.

Sorry, I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying that because an adult child was once an actual child and didn’t choose to enter into the contract, that means they shouldn’t have the same ability as an adult to choose to end a relationship with their parent?

It's not been my experience that MN recommends going NC without dealing with complexity.

I recently posted (under a different user name) about how I was NC with my parents due to lifelong emotional abuse, including specific actual examples of the abuse.

There will still a fairly significant number of posters of the life being too short; my parents must be hurting and I should reach out to them; I would regret it when they were gone; they are your parents and they love you; no one's parents are perfect variety.

And that was with, to repeat,specific examples of the actual abuse.

This 100%. Hurt people hurt people, and it's been so evident here and the personal attack has been awful to see and not the sort of discussion I wanted to see as a result of starting this thread. Complete lack of compassion, empathy and being open to listen to someone else's (equally valid) POV.

This, I think, is the reason why 'ghosting' and NC (where of course I'm not talking about serious abuse) are so common now. It's all very black and white and polarised. Cancelling culture - where's the debate, where's the ability to admit that people are not one-dimensional?

Oh no, other way round- the parent is still a ‘parent’ even when parent and child are both adults. So the parent needs to keep trying (within reason) in a way that we might not in an adult to adult relationship.

I’ve definitely fallen for the idea in the prevailing culture, from social media and online media, that all mothers love their children so much. Images and articles and mentions of adoring motherhood are everywhere.

I disagree. People certainly got excited on this thread but the offenses went both ways with the “respect people’s choice” side in conflict with the “we know best/no one gets to leave a relationship “ side.

I objected—and I still object-to the facile eliding of family estrangement with the utterly fake panic about cancel culture and tiktok influencers.

People on this thread bared their souls and revealed painful experiences of family abuse: physical, sexual, psychological, historic and ongoing. They discussed the difficulty they had being believed, and even believing themselves, and the role supportive therapy or friendship or even the (gasp) internet or so called influencers had in helping them recognize what was going on.

Cancel culture doesn’t exist—it is a political slogan dreamed up to oppose #metoo and hollaback and other initiatives started by powerless men and women to bring abuse to light and to protect women, children, and minorities from the depredations of powerful men. Was Jimmy Saville canceled? Is Russel Brand or Harvey Weinstein a victim in f cancel culture?

Adults who don’t choose to continue a relationship with their abusers are not engaging in cancel culture or cruelly and capriciously harming others. They are choosing, as they have s right to do, safety.

People reacted strongly to being told that the hurt child/adult was the abuser of the family they quarantined from. The whole discussion acknowledged the reality that families can be abusive but three pisters kept insisting that the real harm was done by children who choose to leave. That despite rampant, publicized, cases of coercion and abuse in the press and on mumsnet mothers (specifically) were never guilty of abuse, coercion, cruelty, favoritism, etc…to the level that the poor son (or my therapy patients) should be entitled to make their own decision to cut off.

People got upset because they identified with the son in the story and felt that his right to autonomous, independent, choice was being smothered as they had been smothered.

But not for other people.

no one gets to leave a relationship

please show me any example of anyone saying this on this thread.

I think something we tend to miss, is that one 'side' or the other is not necessarily distorting the truth, or telling falsehoods.

Both parties can, hand on heart, be telling an absolutely factual account of an incident, as they see it. And see it in an incredibly different light.

I do wonder how much of the going NC is a bad thing, comes from those that have the old fashioned belief that 'they are your parents, and you morally owe them' school of thought.

Its a similar thing to the
'you are being oversensitive'
and
'its just banter'
'It was just a joke'

That is so often used to excuse bullying.

So, do you not agree it's a positive thing that the "prevailing culture" narrative is now being challenged?

50 years ago there was a prevailing culture narrative that women should stay with their husbands, even if there was abuse and certainly if there wasn't.

Now, I think we accept that women should definitely get away from abusive men, and will be supported to do so. But it's equally fine for them to separate from their husbands even if there is no abuse and for whatever reason e.g. they now just have different interests and priorities. And, especially if there is children involved, I don't think that anyone imagines that women separate on a whim, without lots of careful consideration and without trying to "fix" the relationship.

Replace "husband" with "mother" and suddenly the prevailing view changes. Many people think that adult children should continue to be in contact with even abusive parents, and it's selfish of them to go low contact (not even "no contact) with parents who are not actually abusive but with whom they don't particularly get along. And, that this is a decision they make based on a single incident and without any attempt at working out a way the relationship can continue.

This is the crux of this thread.
Should adult children be obliged to stay in relationships with their parents because of some unwritten rule that they are responsible for their parents feelings (or actual wellbeing), in a way that isn't the case in any other type of relationship?

they are your parents, and you morally owe them

I do think I owe my parents. I quite literally owe them my life’s privilege.

Cancel culture absolutely exists. People drop people/friends at a drop of a hat nowadays.

Of course going NC because of abuse is a whole different thing but i think the other poster was just saying that (and of course statistically this must be true) - not ALL cases are due to abuse. Of course 'narcissists' (and i hate the overuse of 'toxic' and 'narcissim' nowadays) can equally be the child, can't it?

Looking at my friend, her mum died a few years ago, she was struggling with her weight and menopause and although never before, was clearly down in the dumps and so may have seemed quite needy. I can imagine her son didn't enjoy what he may have seen as 'wallowing' and so chosen to spend less time with her. I get it. I have a wonderful mum who now in her early 80s, is suffering with pain and talks about that all the time and complaining about everything. It's draining to see her, tbh. It's not a joyful interaction. But of course I'm there for her. She was not always like this at all, she was a fab mum who is struggling with arthritic pain and getting old.

We still have lovely moments together and I have fond memories of all the great times we had and all she did for me. I owe her everything and she was a fab grandmother too and helped out with childcare.

Again not invalidating those on here who so bravely have posted and I understand why you would cut contact in those instances. But there must be a (small minority) where actually the child (or adult child) just chooses to do this because it's just a bit more convenient/less stressful.

Someone mentioned this is especially common in those who join the modelling world (as is the case here). I would easily say that the father of the son was a narcissist (I did know him). I hope the son isn't but there must be cases where the 'child' is the narcissist and not the otehr way around. There is always a bell curve.

Yet you didn't ask to be born.

So do you also believe that you should have to put up with abusive behaviour from them?

I don't think she says that. But I agree that we 'owe' (although I don't like the word to describe it) our parents in cases where they have been lovingly helping us along.

They will have periods of difficulty too, perhaps suffering from depression (and for mums, remember this might be around the peri- or menopause at 40-55 - I do remember my mum being more irritable around that time). Should we not support them? In modern parlance, I guess some people would call these women 'toxic' and 'self centred'. But of course both of these go hand-in-hand with depression.

My mum had me in her late 20s so I wasn't living at home when she was going through her menopause. Perhaps with women having children later, the kids get to see this more and therefore there are more instances of people not getting along nowadays?

In most families, you will notice that one sibling takes more responsibility for care when the parents get older. It's not at all always a case of the 'popular' sibling or nicest sibling but some people just put more in. And perhaps some people - neurotypical versus ND - are perhaps able to see that the parent is going through a tough time and want to support.

As an aside - and not again negating many difficult stories on here - would love to know if there is a correlation between ND and NC.

soupsetpleasehelp

Why are you putting "more convenient" and "less stressful" together?

If I have a friend that continually made me stressed I would end the relationship, why should this be different with parents?

Well we are different there. I have a friend who I see, perhaps not super often, but I know she suffers from anxiety and FOMO so tends to go on, a bit like a victim. I still have moments of joy with her although it comes with a bit of stress.

She's still a lovely person and I would hate to drop her. I would not do that.

None of us are perfect btw. But nowadays, after one disagreement or row, some people drop others (so many of these instances on MN). So weird! What about making up?

I have also always found that those people who call out others to be self centred are often the most self centred themselves.

My friend is the sibling that will be left looking after their parents when they get older, she is not "more in", she has been mentally conditioned to think that this is all they will ever be good enough for.
Everything she has ever done has been belittled and any potential that they had has been stomped on until they believe that they will never be as good as their siblings, and all they are good for is to look after their parents in their dotage, because of all the things that they have done for them.
And although they see part of this they are trapped in a cage of their parents making.

I feel really bad about having triggered victims of child abuse. I did not take into account the effects of ongoing trauma when stating my own experiences of NC, and this thread has been an education.

To all such victims, I am so very glad that you were able to cut off the abuser. The shame of having bullied a small, helpless creature is theirs alone. It’s not your fault that your parent(s) were unable to appreciate the miracle of a beautiful baby and loving child. If it’s any comfort, they also missed out on a loving, healthy relationship with their child, due to their own actions. They robbed themselves at the same time they were robbing you. I hope all abusers rot in their old age.

And to be clear, when I say abuse, I’m not just talking about abuse that could be counted as an illegal crime. I’m talking about anyone who has been mean in any way to a defenceless child.

(As a person not in this type of family) i think that families should be mutually supportive and loving.

I don't think children "owe" their parents for simply bringing them up. It was the parents choice to have a child and feeding, clothing, housing your child and giving them some basic opportunities are pretty much in the minimum job definition.

This then has to be supplemented with buildling an adult/adult relationship that's built on mutual respect and love, not one that is based on obligation (and particuarly not one built on fear or guilt). IMO adult chlidren in these sorts of relationships will want to stay in touch and will want to support their parents.

Nicely said.

Nobody asks to be born, of course. That cannot release us from our social obligations to others. No one should have to put up with abusive behaviour , but some degree of discomfort, hurt even, inconvenience , conflict, compromise.. these are all part of human relationships , and I do think there’s a trend towards intolerance and individualism, (and a disregard for the elderly) that is making people less able and willing to make any kind of personal sacrifice for the sake of others who (albeit way short of perfect) have sacrificed so much for them.