How awful that much-loved 30-year-old son cut all contact

[soupsetpleasehelp]

I'm actually writing as I have a very, dear old friend whose DS has completely cut her off. He is in his early 30s and he grew up between his parents (in a different country so no risk that this is outing) after his dad left the mum, shared contact which is common over there. The dad has since then had numerous relationships, and was horrible towards my friend in the early days, and wouldn't provide enough economic support etc. All the main care really came from my friend.

Anyhow, she was always extremely close to her son and was (is) the most warm, loving mum (person) you could imagine. Her son was always her first priority (but I wouldn't say he was spoilt) and we, her friends, always used to meet up with him and he was super cuddly and loving with his mum. No wonder, she was always very encouraging. However, over the last few years he's gone into modelling and has had a few girlfriends, the most recent one who is from a wealthy family.

My friend's son has slowly cut contact from last Xmas until a hard cut off earlier this year. He kept bringing up old (what I would have considered normal experiences) from when he was a child, when he felt she didn't meet his needs with regards to taking him e.g. to the doctors immediately after a fall (she did the next day when he complained of more pain, he initially said it was OK) and he had a fracture. Well, I'm sure lots of parents would have been the same. She is the most far from neglectful you could imagine, a wonderful person.

My friend has taken onboard that perhaps she and her parents at times talked about her ex husband (the father) in not too rosy a terms but I don't think it was a bad case of it at all, just a few occasions (tbh we all knew how awful the father was to my friend).

I wonder at times whether he due to mental health issues is gaslighting his mum, and now that he is in the modelling world and with rich girlfriend and parents, he somehow is embarrassed about his mum (who is very overweight and lives in a small flat) and that this has created some sort of dissonance which have led him to almost create false memories of how awful she was when he was growing up.

I hate seeing my friend upset and I would like to offer to write a letter to the son (and perhaps to his girlfriend and her parents as they only have his word) as I know both my friend and remember seeing her son grow up from 0-5, then seeing them regularly almost every year until he was in his late teens/early 20s. She honestly is a natural with kids and the kindest friend.

I would like to hear from all of you out there that have been affected by this either as the person being cut off, or the person dropping contact. What would be the best way to approach this letter?

The thing is, narcissistic children are not created in nurturing families. If an adult child is narcissistic them there will be trauma of some kind, whether it's the parents' fault directly or not. I am guessing that the fathers issues have had a huge effect on this man growing up. Complex trauma isn't going to be fixed by mum's friend writing a letter!

I really like this post! That last part about ‘might as well have a look at their own reflection in the water first’ was not only absolutely spot on, but also so cleverly references Narcissus whom the condition is named after. Well played 👌

That’s a fair point but I don’t know or care whether the individual players in this drama are in fact narcissists, or even “narcissists” I’m just saying that the culture itself (perpetuated online by what you could call narcissistic perspectives) bundles people along for the ride by encouraging them to cut other others off as though it is a reasonable and normative rather than very extreme behaviour. Young people in particular are seemingly all too easily influenced but it. Most troubling, all criticism is immediately neutralised by it - “if you disagree with me it’s because you’re a narcissist too”.

I can't speak for all survivors commenting on here but I can speak( as a survivor) for myself and I thank you for being willing to listen and understand.

Narcissistic children MAY be the result of their upbringing but not necessarily. There are many examples of caring parents having very challenging children, often just the one with other siblings being far more straightforward. We know far too little about brain development which eventually will give more explanation. In this heartless “cut em off” society many caring parents are left devastated by estrangement (and yes, there can be good reasons for estrangement but estrangement in itself does not mean there’s been a good reason)

I agree that there are children who grow up to cut off their adults without good reason. I think most of them wouldn't be diagnosed with a PD, though because that's quite rare. Though the child in this case does have significant trauma given by the information the OP has given. NPD is not synonymous with someone just being selfish and unreasonable any more than being a bit sad sometimes means clinical depression.

Let's not forget also that trauma can be unrelated to upbringing also. If someone outside of the child family abused them like a stranger or a teacher or someone, they will still be affected. It's more common for parents to be perpetrators, is all. So I agree it's complicated and not neccessarily the parents fault. I guess my issue is, I see on MN, a lot of the time, narcissism being conflated with being egocentric (rather than a low or unstable sense of self, which is the clinical view). Not saying you're doing this but I wanted to correct a misunderstanding . I have a diagnosis of BPD/EUPD and Complex trauma from abuse myself, and am very keen to promote mental health awareness and understanding. I see NPD is often perceived and stigmatized in a similar way to how BPD/EUPD used to be, so have a sort of empathy with how NPD s are often perceived. I am also of the form belief that while a child may be simultaneously materially spoiled and overruled by lack of discipline at the same time as being invalidated, humiliated, even abused or ignored, you can't actually love a child too much. Too little discipline, yes, especially if also alternated with harsh treatment. Too much love, realistic praise and self worth, no. (Apologies if this sounds a bit pompous and patronising, I will get off my soapbox now!)

Also possible for a child to be wanted and loved but also abused and humiliated by even the same parent (or the other one) and be challenging as a result of that. For me it developed into BPD and CPTSD, with a little blend of OCD and ED in the mix, but for some kids it could be NPD.

I was thinking of how @NoisyDenimShaker said about most parents adore their children , and about access to abortion maybe preventing child cruelty. I get what she is saying, so this isn't an attack on that comment at all, just that it's possible for a child to be loved at least partially but still mistreated. Interestingly the father that abused me was one of those despised and unwanted kids (grandma tried to abort him, as wasn't legal in those days, and made it clear to him that he wasn't every day of this life. I was wanted but my father wasn't able to parent due to his own upbringing and my own mother would have died for me, except she was co dependent and had her own baggage so she couldn't or wouldn't leave him or keep us safe. I didn't always feel loved, I often was unsure I was loved, but I think sometimes I was. Though it's not a love I would want , which is why I stayed single. I learned to be very suspicious of the word love from an early age, because to me it meant one minute they were kind to you the next they were hurting you.

Not sure why I keep coming back to this very triggering thread when a handful of posters on it just want to turn family estrangement into some sort of culture war "kids these days" "social media blah blah" "resilience" bollocks but let me spell this out for you.

People who go NC with their parents have usually BEEN DEALING WITH THE BLOODY COMPLEXITY FOR A DECADE OR MORE. And they have had enough of it. And it's their right to decide they don't want to spend their one life dealing, constantly, with "complexity". And internet forums and social media can be tremendously helpful when it comes to the realisation that cutting off the sources of that "complexity" is an option in the first place.

Sounds like the son called it out. We have only a couple of examples given and those from a friend which her own friend was willing to tell her about. I’m sure the son has hundreds more grievances which will have had a cumulative effect. Lots of abuse goes on behind closed doors, not always physical nor even intentional necessarily but abuse nonetheless. You are being extremely naive to assume that because it’s a mother, she must be in the right.

Actually internet forums like mumsnet are very quick to recommend cutting people off rather than dealing with complexity. I am saying that it is unlikely that the son would have cut the mother off without the influence of the culture that mumsnet is part of

But this still suggests it is always inherently a bad thing to cut someone off rather than “dealing with complexity”. Is it? How long do you have to spend dealing with complexity (which may simply be a code word for more manipulative behaviour and emotional blackmail) before you can make the decision, of your own free will, to say “That’s it - no more”?

I haven’t been in this position myself with a family member, but so many of the posters on this thread who have had said the same thing - that contact ended not with them storming out in high dudgeon never to return, or hitting all the block buttons in a fit of pique, but in a sad, reluctant realisation that they had reached the last resort. Maybe they don’t need to stick around and “deal with complexity” because they did the dealing before making the decision.

@pikkumyy77 I was also thinking about how having a welfare state weakens the need to have family at all costs. I have a couple of friends from poorer countries with very small or non-existent welfare states, and there, family is everything. If you get on with your family this is a good thing, as the ties are very close, you learn to tolerate all kinds of people, and families are very extended so if you don't get on with one person or a bit of the family, usually there's another bit you can get on with. The bad side is economic dependence; if you get poorer, sick, can't work temporarily, live in a too small house, your family are the source of help for you. People tend to think of the 'family good' there- so if the mum and dad have a big apartment (tumbling down but big) they will swap it with their adult children and grandchildren, or get a multi generational property so everyone is housed- this is unthinkable with our small families and nuclear family lives, people would see it as a dramatic imposition. People also help with things like childcare in that scenario as they all live together. The clear disadvantage is that if you have neglectful or abusive parents, and you get sick or need anything, you have no place to go as there's no state to support you or full economic independence.

No point in idealising either system. People with abusive or neglectful families can now cut them off without much social sanction; the disgrace of doing this would be high in some cultures. Equally, family bonds are weaker and less supportive and people don't have extra pairs of hands or common family goals r.e. money and resources.

There’s another post that’s been running for days where plenty of posters are advising a user to go NC with her MIL (also cutting off a DGC who loves her grandma) because grandma is choosing to “miss the first time she meets Father Christmas” in favour of attending her other DGCs nativity play,

Apparently this offence is “unforgivable”, she is “abhorrent” and “a nasty woman” who is causing terrible harm to her DGC and therefore must be forbidden from seeing her going forward.

I was also thinking about how having a welfare state weakens the need to have family at all costs. I have a couple of friends from poorer countries with very small or non-existent welfare states, and there, family is everything. If you get on with your family this is a good thing, as the ties are very close, you learn to tolerate all kinds of people, and families are very extended so if you don't get on with one person or a bit of the family, usually there's another bit you can get on with.

I agree with this. I wonder though is it good thing for the reasons you mention further on about economic dependence. In those countries often there is virtually no divorce because as you say family is everything but there are situations where people’s behaviour is so extreme that relationships would not be maintained if survival didn’t require it. I think interdependence among humans is excellent and very positive but codependency is not. The healthy version of these relationships is the absolute best outcome for humans to thrive emotionally. Often though where there is abuse codependency follows and inter generational trauma, addiction, mental health issues, personality disorders become really common.

There's also a chance that the childrearing practices that you are using right now will seem emotionally abusive in the future- for example, things that were completely normal in the past were beating children with an implement like a stick or a hairbrush (which by the 70's was still done but not acceptable, but everyone still hit their kids), hitting kids, kids being silent, children going away to school but also lesser level things like using the naughty step, yelling (I was a yeller which is now considered emotional abuse, I don't have one mid-fifties friend I know well who hasn't yelled at their kids in childhood), putting children in school, putting them in nursery/apart from parent in first three years, weaning giving allergies or gut issues and so on. You never think what you did is suddenly going to be interpreted differently, plus parenting small children is inherently very stressful and that's why rates of PND are high (which itself causes emotional problems in the future for children, no blame, just what the research shows).

Not justifying anything. There's no excuse for hitting children (even though I smacked mine once or twice, then realised this was a terrible thing to do). They haven't cut me off over it- but they could. It could happen to you because you are also likely to be a less optimal parent than you think; perhaps our very 24/7 present parenting will be interpreted as smothering, too much 'I love yous', too much overinvolvement, danger of 'enmeshment' (I don't believe this, but people's views on what is typical and normal child/parent relationships have changed out of recognition from the past). Smacking, indeed hitting, was considered entirely normal in my childhood, and now it would be eye-opening to have it done in public.

What a heartbreaking post. I'm so sorry about what you've been through, and applaud you for having the courage to share your story.

Your experiences resonate so much with mine. I too have cPTSD sustained from child abuse at the hands of my father. This was both physical and mental. I also experienced bullying and was raped twice at fifteen - one of those experiences having been a gang rape - and stalked, which as far as I can see, being able to speak from both experiences, was almost worse. It was the psychological equivalent, and whilst the rape was degrading and humiliating it was over sooner.

I learned a huge amount about my past having been through EMDR therapy, which really has given me my life back - a life I didn't even know that to some extent I'd lost. It gives you a clarity of vision I never before dreamed possible. It can't remove the memories from your past - what it can do is strip the emotion out of them and give you back your objectivity.

Victims who have been abused from their early years attract other abusers. They can sense it: it's as though we are giving off radar signals only they can receive. The good news is that this IS a cycle that can be broken, and having been through 18 months' EMDR some years ago now, I've never since experienced similar. My father, and his abuse, cost me years of my life that I could have been living to the full. It wasn't until cPTSD symptoms became so serious that they made me very ill indeed that I even realised I was traumatised.

Yes, my mother should have done more to protect me. That was the most painful realization of all. But she did the worst thing (staying with him) for the best of intentions: she genuinely thought that was in her children's best interests not to have a broken home. She too was a victim of the boiling frog analogy yet when in that situation, it's difficult to recognise yourself as a victim. She died young - I'm glad we resolved all this beforehand and I would never have cut her off - I loved her, and I know that was mutual. As for my father, I quickly made the decision that he would not be part of my adult life. He died young, too, and I always wondered whether I would feel any guilt if that happened. I didn't. Not an ounce of it.

I hope that, like me, you have managed to find peace and healing in your adult years; also that sharing this story might possibly help someone else. Do seek EMDR therapy if this resonates with you. I'm living proof of just how effective this is.

to all on this thread who have been similarly affected.

I wonder how many of the people worried that social media and modern technology are encouraging people to cut off their family members are actually more worried about exactly this. They don’t genuinely believe someone sharing something on TikTok or Facebook has actually persuaded their relative to cut contact because it’s some kind of “trend” - they’re worried, and angry, that someone has taken away the taboo and has shown their relative that it’s possible to do it without the sky falling in.

Are they worried that modern technology encourages this somehow, or is their real concern the fact that technology can facilitate this? I saw on one of these Throwback TV pages the other day that it was 30 years ago this week that BT introduced caller display and the 1471 service. It shows how relatively recently we didn’t have that much control over who could contact us. Residential answering machines had been around since the 80s, but still weren’t really mainstream, and there was still a “I don’t like talking to a machine” mentality for a lot of people. Call screening was difficult or impossible.

Now we can press a couple of buttons and that’s that. Ditto for Messenger, WhatsApp, emails etc.. That’s scary stuff for someone who thinks you owe them contact, or even just thinks “Oh, they’ll come round if I just keep trying”. Their way in has gone. They’re not worried you might see something on Facebook that makes you suddenly decide to “go NC” - they’re worried that you have the option and might use it.

There's a lot of pain on this thread.
I think the reason the middle section got so polarised and unpleasant is all to do with projection.
Some people were speaking to OP as if she was their parent towards whom they still have a great deal of unresolved anger. There was sneering and bullying towards one other person in particular.
Some of the responses recounted horrible abuse and emotional ill treatment.
The difficulty is that they made the leap to assume that everyone who cuts off a parent must have suffered similarly.
There is the possibility that the son in this scenario is quite narcissistic himself and that his Mum doesn't fit his new lifestyle. There also seem to be elements of parental alienation towards his mother from his father, There's also the possibility that there have been issues that OP doesn't know about and that her friend lacks self awareness. We don't know and can't assume. Her fiend could genuinely have been a caring mother who did her best.
Both estranged adult children and estranged parents have a tendency to band together on the internet and assume that other people's experience is the same as their own.
The vast majority of posts strongly advised OP against writing letters and she decided that she wouldn't. That was the AIBU answered but people persisted in speculating that their must be more to the story.
More than one thing can be true at the same time.
There are people who have suffered at the hands of their parents and are better off not seeing them.
It's also true that there is a societal shift towards defining abuse more and more broadly and there is a tendency on Social media to encourage an uncompromising NC. There are parents who love their children and grandchildren , who have made mistakes, as we all do, who are suffering as a result of this. There are parents who are unwilling to look at their own behaviour but there are others who would be willing but meet with a brick wall.
It's very sad all round.

What’s that got to do with my comment?

Great post

I think this is absolutely bang on.

I'm very aware that my options for being able to liberate myself from my family (which is a more positive way of putting "going NC") would have been limited culturally and logistically in previous generations, and even financially if you want to go back further. I feel lucky to have been born in an era where an 18-year-old woman could go to university, move cities, become financially independent and connect with other people across the world who had similar childhoods and who broke the taboo about cutting ties with your family. And I think there are a lot of people who are scared by that.

@Anonymouseposter

You've said a lot. I'm not going to quote your post in its entirety - that gets tiresome for other posters - but I want to respond in general terms to selective points that you raised.

Yes, about your observations as to projection. This made it all-but impossible to engage on some levels upthread as objectivity was entirely missing, emotion too heightened, and productive, objective discussion too difficult. As to your point below:

Some of the responses recounted horrible abuse and emotional ill treatment.
The difficulty is that they made the leap to assume that everyone who cuts off a parent must have suffered similarly.

This was not the thread I read. Some posters did say this. But the vast majority merely commented as to where personal responsibility ends and interference/unnecessarily judgemental attitudes start. As does the inevitable (and futile) effort to apportion blame. Most posts were to the tune that adults have a right to decide the terms of their own relationships and that this is beyond the remit of impartial bystanders - whether well-meaning or simply interfering - who are not personally living that life. It's quite immature to expend reams of derailing text on whose 'fault' it is, or how a person 'justifies' estrangement. What does that matter? A person has reached a decision that they feel is in the interests of their own wellbeing. We cannot hold another human being under duress to have a relationship with us. We can only control our own actions, not those of others.

The word 'toxic' is as hackneyed and cliched as the ever-parrotted 'narcissism' (the point of use at which I generally stop reading), but it might well be the case that no one person is at fault, and that two people simply happen to be 'toxic' to each other. It happens. Splitting hairs over whether estrangement is 'justified' or otherwise is an exercise in futility. We, as bystanders, do not get to make that choice.

This is why a good deal of the above discussion is simply wasted pixels, IMO.

What does that matter?

Well I think it does matter if we acknowledge that social norms and organisation may at least partially shape these practices. This has been one of the cornerstone points of debate on this thread.

I should think your friend is not telling you the whole truth here. A very sanitised version, read through the lines he thinks she neglected him. I bet if you asked him he would be able to tell you a lot more. It’s only when you get to being an adult are you brave enough to cut them out. I had a big falling out with my parents a year or two ago about my childhood they completely gas lit me on what happened and told people their version then didn’t like it if I confided even in my own husband what I felt!

Very selective quoting here. Four words from a post which explicates the reasons in some detail. It's disingenuous, but on this occasion I'll bite.

The point being made here - which was as clear as day - is that apportioning blame is not only unhelpful but futile. We don't control others' behaviour or have jurisdiction over their decisions.

Clearly this is the way some people would prefer to expend their energy. Fair play. No one's trying to stop you. By all means blame the evils of the nasty www, or, as is usually the case, the nearest available woman or the next-but-one younger generation for what you're bound to see as a social rather than a personal ill.

I doubt whether it would ever occur to such posters that the prevalence of these attitudes - not least the deeply pervasive blame culture to which they subscribe - is one very obvious contributor to the problem of estrangement in the first place.

I’m kind of interested in the way some people on this thread are talking about parent/child relationships.

I don’t think there’s any other relationship between adults that we would talk about in this way - we accept in society that friendships can end for any reason, that marriages/romantic relationships can end because one person has decided they don’t want to be in it any more. No one on here tells a woman she must stay in her marriage because leaving would be narcissistic, even if her partner is a good person and the complaints are either fairly minor or just to do with the woman herself. I’ve read hundreds of threads over the years where a woman has been told she can leave for any reason, and she doesn't have to justify it.

Yet for many commenting on this thread there’s a duty presumed in an adult child’s relationship with their parent. It’s not enough to feel unhappy with the relationship, whereas we pretty much all agree as a society that that is a valid reason for ending any other relationship.