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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To stop using Mumsnet for a while because of the constant negative comments about men?

576 replies

listsandbudgets · 16/11/2024 19:01

I've just posted a thread about my missing (now turned up) friend. So many posters assuming that her DP was violent, controlling etc. etc.

Someone else posted about their DP getting a letter from child maintenance about a child he'd never met - again people slagging him of for "sowing his oats" implying he'd been violent and god knows what.

That's just 2 examples. There are some horrible men out there of course there are but it makes me so sad to see this constant underlying misandry here on mumsnet. Men our are sons, brothers, partners and fathers and the very vast majority of them are decent people - flawed perhaps, made some mistakes perhaps but that does not make them violent controlling etc. etc. it makes them human.

Please stop it mumsnet. Certainly attribute blame where it's genuinely due but stop making these awful assumptions it's unhelpful and nasty.

Signing off will be back in a few weeks to see whether or not things have improved - doubt it sadly

OP posts:
Fluufer · 19/11/2024 10:14

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 19/11/2024 10:12

I really can’t be arsed copying and pasting but this thread is full of words and insinuation

Nobody has said that. That's why you can't copy and paste it.

BalletCat · 19/11/2024 11:12

As if some idiots think I'm a man just because I don't agree with them 😂

This is the kind of immature bullshit that makes it impossible to engage with people and have a reasonable debate.

BalletCat · 19/11/2024 11:13

OPsSockpuppet · 19/11/2024 10:02

Final comment or my head will explode,

@EvilsElsasPetSnowman

If you want oppressive classes to fight for those whom they oppress, shouldn’t that count for every oppressed class? Or is it just about what YOU want?

This is pure whataboutery. We’re discussing men’s oppression of women. You have no idea about every poster’s circumstances or actions in other areas. Utterly pointless comment.

If you really can't see why this comment is actually relevant, no one can help you and we're all wasting our breath.

Wednesdaysdrag · 19/11/2024 11:39

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 19/11/2024 09:40

Women are always living in a society that centres men and assumes that men can’t have done the thing they are accused of because they appear to be decent.

They also live in a society where y they know they should protect children and a society where reporting of child abuse is easily done if you see it happen.

If you agree most men aren’t decent you also agree they are awful. If you aren’t decent then you are awful. Decent is lowest acceptable bar. You go below that, what are you?

So there’s no inbetween - people are either decent or awful? I never think on those black and white terms

You agree that men don’t challenge poor behaviour that they see and know of, despite being the ones that are most likely to be able to change it.

No I don’t agree that men never challenge poor behaviour

If a man’s perspective is more helpful to you. A man posted here to say he had no clue many women dislike men.

I don’t take it that he represents all men the same way I don’t think the Not My Nigel women represent all women

Yes. People should protect children. That applies to men as well. Since men set up the society (which you agreed with) they have the most power to protect the kids.

Given men are more likely to be abusers they have more power to stop the abuse. It’s more women’s faults that men abuse. Of course if they know they should report. Both men and women.

You are putting the onus (or at least equal responsibility) onto women to stop men abusing. Men are in the majority of cases the abuser. Men also hold more weight with authorities. Men are more likely to be listened to.

Decent is the basic minimum that should be expected. If you are under the basic minimum of decent behaviour, what are you?

I didn’t say men NEVER challenge it. Whose thinking is black and white now? Men rarely challenge or.

Again, I never said that poster represented all men. Why are you pretending I did. Another man posted here and said he isn’t bothered by the posts here. So that’s 3 examples. 2 of men not bothered or completely unaware and unaffected. And one example of a man saying men do know when their friends behaviour is sketchy and men should do more. I did notice you ignored that one.

But non of that counts? How many men have to show they are unbothered, unaffected, are aware of other men’s poor behaviour do you need to prove it’s an issue? The fact that you are dismissing it because it doesn’t fit what you want it to doesn’t change it.

2 saying they are unbothered, unaware and uninterested is more than the men posting proof that it’s damaged them on this thread. Actual men posting isn’t proof for you. All you anecdotes from your female perspective isn’t proof of anything either. Why are you talking over the men, in defence of them?

anchorage81 · 19/11/2024 11:49

I couldn't disagree more.

Of course there are many good men, but I increasingly think that toxic masculinity is to blame for most of what is wrong in the world. Wars, dictators, the anti-feminist backlash, incel culture and Andrew Tate, even in everyday life I frequently come across eye popping sexism and male entitlement even in so called 'nice men' in my personal and professional life.

Often things that I didn't previously even see or just accepted as part of my 'lot' but now feel my eyes have been opened and I can better see the imbalance of power. Things have changed in the last ten or so years, with Me Too and other movements which have had a seismic impact on the everyday lives and attitudes of women, and a lot of men seem to find this very difficult.

We need to keep fighting.

GCAcademic · 19/11/2024 11:49

I would love for one of the posters who belive that most men are decent to explain how, then, the Gisele Pelicot case could have happened. Anyone?

anchorage81 · 19/11/2024 11:50

And how much we women blame ourselves or seek fault within ourselves while men just breeze through doing and thinking as they please.

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 19/11/2024 11:55

Yes. People should protect children. That applies to men as well. Since men set up the society (which you agreed with) they have the most power to protect the kids.

That doesn’t abscond women, who can report just as easily. We aren’t shackled FFS, the information is out there on how to report, even toddlers understand dialling 999, there’s no excuse to ignore abuse. Also it’s BS that men have more power to protect kids when “protecting” is simply reporting abuse. Why shouldn’t the onus be on women who know about men raping children?. I’d report abuse every time - wouldn’t you? I wouldn’t sit and think “Oh but this is men doing it, the onus isn’t on me!”. Would you?

Given men are more likely to be abusers they have more power to stop the abuse. It’s more women’s faults that men abuse. Of course if they know they should report. Both men and women.

Actually it’s the authorities, made up of both men and women, who have duty and power to stop the abuse.

Hoenstly this thinly veiled downplaying of abusive women is fucking me off. And you have the nerve to say women are always blamed, whilst also trying to imply they too powerless to be blamed when they know their husband is raping or torturing a child.

You are putting the onus (or at least equal responsibility) onto women to stop men abusing. Men are in the majority of cases the abuser. Men also hold more weight with authorities. Men are more likely to be listened to.

Right, listen to what you’re saying. Men abuse, and they shouldn’t. Thats a given. And sadly it happens. But that doesn’t mean that when other people, including women (or other men), find out about the abuse, they can just do nothing because “Hey it’s not MY responsibility”. I am putting the onus on ANYONE who knows abuse is happening to stop it. Men OR women. And I disagree that in this day and age men are more likely to be listened to when reporting a child being raped. Everyone would be listened to.

I know you think you’re helping women’s causes but this is sailing too close to abuse not being the problem of anyone but the abuser. Which is an enabling behaviour that meant I was abused for far longer than I needed to be (yes it was her responsibility too and she failed at protecting me). I couldn’t give a flying fuck what someone has between their legs, the nanosecond you know about sexual abuse of a child it’s absolutely your responsibility to try and stop it, wether you want to or not. Do you realise how offensive you’re being to a CSA survivor who had said the wife knew about it and did nothing?

But non of that counts? How many men have to show they are unbothered, unaffected, are aware of other men’s poor behaviour do you need to prove it’s an issue? The fact that you are dismissing it because it doesn’t fit what you want it to doesn’t change it.

What am I dismissing exactly? I’ve said men are a problem. I’ve said individual men can be wonderful and that I don’t like to play in identity politics. How you’ve stretched that to mean I don’t think men are an issue I’ll never know.

All you anecdotes from your female perspective isn’t proof of anything either. Why are you talking over the men, in defence of them?

Im not. Someone asked for examples of men being good and I gave them. You viewing that as me defending men is entirely to do with your own lack of comprehension and nothing to do with me.

I think I’ll have to step away from this thread when it’s turned into a child abuser apologist thread (and yes ignoring sexual abuse of children is child abuse, even if you are a woman).

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 19/11/2024 11:56

GCAcademic · 19/11/2024 11:49

I would love for one of the posters who belive that most men are decent to explain how, then, the Gisele Pelicot case could have happened. Anyone?

The important part is “most” men.

Thats like saying “How can you tell me most women are decent because of Karen Matthews, Maxine Carr, Myra Hindley”

OPsSockpuppet · 19/11/2024 12:00

BalletCat · 19/11/2024 11:13

If you really can't see why this comment is actually relevant, no one can help you and we're all wasting our breath.

Oh really. If you look back upthread you will see that I carefully explained how the oppressed/oppressor situation here is very similar to the oppressed/oppressor dynamic in racism. Obviously it has parallels in pretty much all cases of oppression. And obviously it’s always incumbent on the oppressor class to challenge this dynamic.

Trying to quiz every poster about what specifically they have done and are doing to combat every unequal dynamic is just completely pointless. What we’re saying is that men as a group don’t routinely challenge the dynamic and that’s why women’s oppression continues.

OPsSockpuppet · 19/11/2024 12:02

anchorage81 · 19/11/2024 11:50

And how much we women blame ourselves or seek fault within ourselves while men just breeze through doing and thinking as they please.

Exactly. Here we are, hand-wringing over whether some women are a bit mean to men. Meanwhile men* carry on regardless, causing devastation, war and misery.

*as a class (NAMALT, obvs)

Wednesdaysdrag · 19/11/2024 12:25

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 19/11/2024 11:55

Yes. People should protect children. That applies to men as well. Since men set up the society (which you agreed with) they have the most power to protect the kids.

That doesn’t abscond women, who can report just as easily. We aren’t shackled FFS, the information is out there on how to report, even toddlers understand dialling 999, there’s no excuse to ignore abuse. Also it’s BS that men have more power to protect kids when “protecting” is simply reporting abuse. Why shouldn’t the onus be on women who know about men raping children?. I’d report abuse every time - wouldn’t you? I wouldn’t sit and think “Oh but this is men doing it, the onus isn’t on me!”. Would you?

Given men are more likely to be abusers they have more power to stop the abuse. It’s more women’s faults that men abuse. Of course if they know they should report. Both men and women.

Actually it’s the authorities, made up of both men and women, who have duty and power to stop the abuse.

Hoenstly this thinly veiled downplaying of abusive women is fucking me off. And you have the nerve to say women are always blamed, whilst also trying to imply they too powerless to be blamed when they know their husband is raping or torturing a child.

You are putting the onus (or at least equal responsibility) onto women to stop men abusing. Men are in the majority of cases the abuser. Men also hold more weight with authorities. Men are more likely to be listened to.

Right, listen to what you’re saying. Men abuse, and they shouldn’t. Thats a given. And sadly it happens. But that doesn’t mean that when other people, including women (or other men), find out about the abuse, they can just do nothing because “Hey it’s not MY responsibility”. I am putting the onus on ANYONE who knows abuse is happening to stop it. Men OR women. And I disagree that in this day and age men are more likely to be listened to when reporting a child being raped. Everyone would be listened to.

I know you think you’re helping women’s causes but this is sailing too close to abuse not being the problem of anyone but the abuser. Which is an enabling behaviour that meant I was abused for far longer than I needed to be (yes it was her responsibility too and she failed at protecting me). I couldn’t give a flying fuck what someone has between their legs, the nanosecond you know about sexual abuse of a child it’s absolutely your responsibility to try and stop it, wether you want to or not. Do you realise how offensive you’re being to a CSA survivor who had said the wife knew about it and did nothing?

But non of that counts? How many men have to show they are unbothered, unaffected, are aware of other men’s poor behaviour do you need to prove it’s an issue? The fact that you are dismissing it because it doesn’t fit what you want it to doesn’t change it.

What am I dismissing exactly? I’ve said men are a problem. I’ve said individual men can be wonderful and that I don’t like to play in identity politics. How you’ve stretched that to mean I don’t think men are an issue I’ll never know.

All you anecdotes from your female perspective isn’t proof of anything either. Why are you talking over the men, in defence of them?

Im not. Someone asked for examples of men being good and I gave them. You viewing that as me defending men is entirely to do with your own lack of comprehension and nothing to do with me.

I think I’ll have to step away from this thread when it’s turned into a child abuser apologist thread (and yes ignoring sexual abuse of children is child abuse, even if you are a woman).

Who said it means women don’t have to do anything about abuse?

Of course men have more power when reporting. Because it’s a provable fact that men are always taken more seriously by authorities.

Why do you think so many people don’t believe women reporting rape? Because society makes them believe it’s ok to dismiss women. Especially, when it’s in defence of a man.

Women should absolutely report abuse of children. But if a man is raping a child he holds the most power to simply just not rape a child. The responsibility for the rape is his alone. Is not a woman’s fault a man raped a child. If she doesn’t report a known abuser, she is responsible for not reporting. But she isn’t responsible for the rape.

And again, of course women should report it when they know. But that also puts their lives at risk in alot of cases. Their kids lives at risk. Because women aren’t believed. Because men set up the society that they want and it suits them for women to not be believed.

It’s ridiculous you think everyone would be listened to when reporting child abuse. It’s simply not true.

It’s absolutely not sailing to close to it nor being people’s responsibility to report. But you are saying that women hold responsibility for men committing abuse, if they don’t report. They don’t. They hold responsibility for not reporting it. But sometimes, given women are quite often murdered by their parents there may be good reason they don’t.

The person ignoring sexual abuse is wrong to do that. But the person abusing is still the one responsible for the abuse. which is usually a man.

You group actual abusers and people who know they are abusers, into one group it will still be mainly men.

Why is your view relevant? I have 3 examples of men talking that directly dispute your claims and you came back with ‘that’s just one’.

Why do you think your anecdotes are more important than several men commenting on the issue?

You tried to dismiss men’s actual posts on it because it doesn’t aligned with yours.

You have tried to make women as equally responsible for male abuse. It’s weird. If I tell my friend I am going to steal a car and then do. Do you think we are both equally responsible for stealing the car?

If my friend knows but I threaten to kill her children and her she tries to stop me, are we equally responsible?

No one is a child abuser apologist. You are trying to shift the blame from male abusers and make women share the responsibility. It’s sick.

if all men disappeared the vast majority of CSA and DV would disappear. Why?

GCAcademic · 19/11/2024 12:52

EvilsElsasPetSnowman · 19/11/2024 11:56

The important part is “most” men.

Thats like saying “How can you tell me most women are decent because of Karen Matthews, Maxine Carr, Myra Hindley”

Are you really so obtuse that you can't see the difference between cases involving a single female criminal and one in which 80 local men turned up to rape a woman? Really?

The names of those female criminals you mention are notorious precisely because they are not men. There are simply so many male murderers and abusers that their names rarely register with the public.

downwindofyou · 19/11/2024 14:56

DamselinDistress24 · 16/11/2024 19:02

the very vast majority of them are decent people.

The vast majority of men are not decent people.

I wouldn't even claim the vast majority of women are decent people.

Wow. I tho k the vast majority of people are too dull to be much else other than decent.

downwindofyou · 19/11/2024 14:57

HardyAmberMoose · 16/11/2024 19:05

You don’t need to announce your departure. It’s not an airport.

So unoriginal 🙄

downwindofyou · 19/11/2024 15:01

GCAcademic · 16/11/2024 19:16

Most men are not decent. The case of Giselle Pelicot is ample proof of that. All those men in just a small area willing to rape a drugged woman. And let's not forget to factor in those who would have done so had they not been worried about getting caught.

It was a 100mile radius. Not a small area and they were not a random selection of men. They were men who chose to be on a deviant forum

downwindofyou · 19/11/2024 15:02

MeowCatPleaseMeowBack · 16/11/2024 19:14

Men our are sons, brothers, partners and fathers and the very vast majority of them are decent people

No. Look at the Gisele Pelicot case. Her husband invited around 85 men to rape her and around 80 did it. Anonymous surveys also show most men will rape if they think they can get away with it. This includes your sons, brothers, and partners, and Mumsnet is one of the few places you can talk about it and not be completely overwhelmed by NAMALT responses.

Was it 85? I thought it was 49 who raped her out of 50. Still shocking but facts are important

OPsSockpuppet · 19/11/2024 15:12

downwindofyou · 19/11/2024 15:01

It was a 100mile radius. Not a small area and they were not a random selection of men. They were men who chose to be on a deviant forum

Why on earth are you downplaying this?
Jesus.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 19/11/2024 15:14

Can you not use Google? The ones on trial are the ones who’ve been identified. There’s many they haven’t identified.

Your downplaying of this is abhorrent.

SabreIsMyFave · 19/11/2024 15:15

downwindofyou · 19/11/2024 15:02

Was it 85? I thought it was 49 who raped her out of 50. Still shocking but facts are important

Like actual fucking wow! Shock So it wasn't 80 odd (supposedly) it was ONLY 49 who raped her?

Speechless! Fuck me sideways!

CurlewKate · 19/11/2024 15:28

@downwindofyou -your posts here are utterly shocking.

CurlewKate · 19/11/2024 15:30

@listsandbudgets if you had a small child and you were teaching him or her what to do if they were lost, could you describe the person you would tell them to ask for help?

SabreIsMyFave · 19/11/2024 15:30

CurlewKate · 19/11/2024 15:28

@downwindofyou -your posts here are utterly shocking.

Yes they are!

meditrina · 19/11/2024 15:55

GCAcademic · 16/11/2024 19:18

Cross-posted. Exactly. It astonishes me that anyone who has heard about this case can persist in blindly chanting that NAMALT.

It may on;ly have been only 5 out of 85, but no, NAMALT.

And NAMALT is the only hope for a positive way ahead. NAMALT is not a glib excuse. It's an important voice saying that because NAMALT, there is a viable different way to be a man. And those men matter. And are the example and the hope of a better future. They are the ones that our boys need to be learning from. Not the ones that people feel they cannot mention for fear of being piled on.

OPsSockpuppet · 19/11/2024 16:53

meditrina · 19/11/2024 15:55

It may on;ly have been only 5 out of 85, but no, NAMALT.

And NAMALT is the only hope for a positive way ahead. NAMALT is not a glib excuse. It's an important voice saying that because NAMALT, there is a viable different way to be a man. And those men matter. And are the example and the hope of a better future. They are the ones that our boys need to be learning from. Not the ones that people feel they cannot mention for fear of being piled on.

Depends how it’s used, surely.

In the classroom, when I’m trying to make a point about sexism but also trying not to alienate the boys, I mention how none of the freedoms women have earned would have been possible if there weren’t a crucial input from the good men. Fine - NAMALT, I suppose, but I might not phrase it like that.

But if NAMALT is being used to snap back at women raising valid grievances, no. That is glib.