To stop using Mumsnet for a while because of the constant negative comments about men?

[listsandbudgets]

I've just posted a thread about my missing (now turned up) friend. So many posters assuming that her DP was violent, controlling etc. etc.

Someone else posted about their DP getting a letter from child maintenance about a child he'd never met - again people slagging him of for "sowing his oats" implying he'd been violent and god knows what.

That's just 2 examples. There are some horrible men out there of course there are but it makes me so sad to see this constant underlying misandry here on mumsnet. Men our are sons, brothers, partners and fathers and the very vast majority of them are decent people - flawed perhaps, made some mistakes perhaps but that does not make them violent controlling etc. etc. it makes them human.

Please stop it mumsnet. Certainly attribute blame where it's genuinely due but stop making these awful assumptions it's unhelpful and nasty.

Signing off will be back in a few weeks to see whether or not things have improved - doubt it sadly

Or perhaps she is evil as well and doesn’t see CSA as being a problem? They aren’t always groomed little victims, often they’re complicit as shown in many child abuse cases. I don’t personally buy the “Oh the man made me go along with it” narrative either that almost always crops up.

Who is assuming they’re decent by default? I’m saying we can’t say that the vast majority of men are awful. That doesn’t mean I think they’re decent. Again I don’t think on such black and white terms

I agree with your last paragraph

So most men are awful because they don’t hate other men? What does men standing up for women look like to you? Because I do see it, a lot.

You still can’t complain about the concept of men having a rant about women because there’s no data to back up their rants and then make a huge data-less claim yourself about men (royal you not you specifically)

Of course you can discuss men being problematic. Like I say, start a thread or join one of the FWR ones. But you don’t have carte Blanche to turn every thread into this subject and complain when people talk about the original content of the OP.

without posters like you shouting them down, the ‘women are bad too’ brigade and NAMALT, despite no one actually saying it’s ALL men.

Why do you exaggerate? IME people exaggerate when they have no legitimate back up. I haven’t said either of these things, nothing like it.

Yes, I’m with you. I’ve got adult sons and grandsons, and as with every other man I’ve been close to, I’ve never had or seen any sort of issue. 🤷‍♀️

Of course vile men exist - but vile women exist alongside them. Not every woman is a nice person.

Some people are horrible - most aren’t. 🙂

Why do you exaggerate you say. What, like this post (from you) -

I have to say, claiming “We don’t hate men” then practically wanking over the fact they’ve been rude to a male poster, isn’t exactly helping the cause 🤣

Conversation naturally evolves. What do I need to back up? If you want to stick rigidly to what the OP has written you do that, you don’t get to police other people or be surprised that when a poster wants to flounce because of ‘negative comments towards men’, women then post their experiences of negative experiences at the hands of men. it’s the why if you like.
Not sure why that’s difficult to understand.

Men don't have to hate other men to stand up for women.
You must be really lucky that you see it a lot.
I almost never see male led articles/news columns talking about violence towards women and how it needs to stop. I almost never see members of a group of leering lads seriously trying to stop their friends from leering at women.
It's still acceptable for a man to joke about knocking his wife about; this should be shut down immediately by the other men in the group.
If enough men did these things, it would push male violence towards women into a more unacceptable realm.
Yes, bad men would still do it, but semi decent ones would have a chance to take a different side.

Mine was tongue in cheek, your was misquoting me entirely.

Im not the one policing people and having a meltdown because the thread isn’t going in the direction I want it to.

Once again - this thread isn’t about negative experiences of men. Therefore you can’t really moan when people stick to the topic of OP. Why don’t you start your own thread? Genuine question?

I believe in free speech and don’t believe “we’ve said this on a thread now nobody can post any other type of comment”.

I didn't say they need to hate other men. If you see it a lot, perhaps you could tell me what it looks like?

You need to start watching the right things. It is called about on news channels, its debate in Parliament, X is full of it. Which is a good thing - but you not seeing it doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

I do some men help women constantly - my 21yo niece passed out drunk in the street one Saturday night in December and a truck driver stopped, put a blanket on her and managed to call her mum. Stuff like that doesn’t make the news because it isn’t newsworthy. Bad stuff does because that’s how news outlets work.

It's still acceptable for a man to joke about knocking his wife about

Not in my circles it isn’t. I don’t associate with anyone who’d find this acceptable.

Having to go and look for it doesn't really support your assertion that it's happening lots does it?

You haven’t told me what standing for women looks like to you?

See example above. I see men helping women out with many things - another one of the top of my head, someone crashed into me not long ago and protested that it was my fault (it wasn’t) and he wouldn’t be admitting fault. A bloke came along and gave him a very short shrift, told him he’d witnessed it and that he’d be my witness (which he did and ultimately meant I won the claim). My DH is another one - he was great birth partner because he advocated for me when pain relief was withheld (by women!) and demanded they get me some. His brother is a POS and was violent to his girlfriend last year. He’s called it out and cut him off.

Men doing good things happens all the time. You don’t see it or choose not to for whatever reason.

How doesn’t it? Look at the right sources and you’ll find what you’re looking for. I assume you don’t read every newspaper, watch every TV show, watch every parliamentary debate?

Im not lying, it does happen - the desperation for you to not want it to be true is palpable

I agree, it's the same on a thread asking for opinions on why someone isn't getting dates. Women come across as bitter, and as though they think they are far far superior to men. The constant putting down of men is no different to what they complain men do.

My ex was an abusive arsehole so by rights I should have a negative view on men but I don't. The majority of men don't abuse their partners, they aren't sexist, they don't cheat. It's the minority that do that.

You're wrongly conflating being nice to/helping a woman with standing up for women as a sex class.
I didn't say men never do good things. I said most men don't stand up for women. Most men do nothing to tackle misogyny or VAWG with any kind of consistency.

Ok - so what does men standing up for women as a class look like to you in practice? Which men? When?

Also @Fluufer can I ask - are you white? Non-Jewish and Non-Muslim?
You will be at least one of those.
What do you do to stand up for black people, Muslim and Jewish people (all experiencing catastrophic levels of discrimination right now) as a class?

I think ‘practically wanking’ and words you’re using like ‘desperation’ are pretty good examples of exaggeration. I’m still not sure what I’m supposed to be exaggerating about. The things you are complaining about you are doing yourself.

Anyway, I already said there’s no point in starting any form of thread that tries to discuss men being problematic as a sex
class. As every time someone does, a select few turn up with Not All Men (when no one says this), Not My Nigel, I don’t know any horrible men! Wash rinse repeat. I know lots of lovely men too, I just wouldn’t feel the need to state it when women are trying to discuss this topic, as I get it.

Which men? It should be all men, obviously, all of the time. Speaking out every time they see/hear misogyny. Actively fighting with us for our rights. Sharing the load at home, all the time. Voting with us in mind.
It cannot be true that most men stand up for women lots of the time, because that would not a patriarchy make.

Of course vile men exist - but vile women exist alongside them. Not every woman is a nice person.

In nothing like the same numbers!!

Look, if all things were equal, there would probably be similar numbers of bad eggs in the male and female populations. Probably (we can’t actually know of course).

But all things aren’t equal, are they? We live in a world that has been built by men for men and in which men have historically taken al the power and used it against women. Because they could. Maybe women would have done the same if they were the bigger, stronger sex and not the ones being raped, dying in childbirth etc. We’ll never know.

This power imbalance is what has permitted men to behave as they do. It’s not because they’re evil.

It’s as if some people have no idea about where sexism comes from; they think it’s just some random men and women deciding to be mean about the other sex.

Why do you need to ask that? Is it relevant? Does anything I have said so far suggest to you that I am a quiet observer of discrimination?

Yes perhaps she is.

No they aren’t ALWAYS groomed victims. They always live in a society that’s taught them that men don’t take kindly to being stood up to and don’t like being called out on bad behaviour.

Women are always living in a society that centres men and assumes that men can’t have done the thing they are accused of because they appear to be decent.

If you agree most men aren’t decent you also agree they are awful. If you aren’t decent then you are awful. Decent is lowest acceptable bar. You go below that, what are you?

Men and their behaviour is black and white. It’s either decent or it’s not.

If you agree with my last paragraph you agree that men have set the society up the way that suits them. You agree that men don’t challenge poor behaviour that they see and know of, despite being the ones that are most likely to be able to change it. That they are the reason so much poor male behaviour goes under the radar.

If a man’s perspective is more helpful to you. A man posted here to say he had no clue many women dislike men. Proving it’s not an issue. If it was an issue and had impacted him in anyway, he would know.

If that’s not enough check out Daniel Sloss talking about his friend sexually assaulting a female friend. Especially the bit about men knowing their friends behaviour isn’t ok and turning a blind eye. That they saw the signs and ignored them and why it’s important men to act.

Not at all. Thats my view - I haven’t misquoted anyone or twisted what someone has said.

I have to say I find it odd that you don’t want to start a thread because some people come on to disagree - isn’t that the fabric of life? Or at least MN. I’ll advise to you want I advise to my kids when people try and argue with them: ignore it.

Or perhaps don’t assume it will happen.

So all men, even powerless ones, all of the time should be prioritising standing up for women as a class.

What does that look like in practical terms?

And TBH I don’t like dictating how other people vote. That’s not a democracy. And you have no idea what happens in individual households, what men do or don’t do. It’s all hinging on assumptions really.

The thing is, we have to co exist in the real world and a lot of people live in their bubble of their owns lives and don’t look around elsewhere - not out of malice but probably out of habit, or how they were raised, or the culture they live in. If they see nice men they will equate it with “men are nice”. Swallowing the blue pill (or is it the red pill?!) isn’t easy and not everyone does it - I think writing women off as enablers when actually it’s unintended ignorance, isn’t helpful