To stop using Mumsnet for a while because of the constant negative comments about men?

[listsandbudgets]

I've just posted a thread about my missing (now turned up) friend. So many posters assuming that her DP was violent, controlling etc. etc.

Someone else posted about their DP getting a letter from child maintenance about a child he'd never met - again people slagging him of for "sowing his oats" implying he'd been violent and god knows what.

That's just 2 examples. There are some horrible men out there of course there are but it makes me so sad to see this constant underlying misandry here on mumsnet. Men our are sons, brothers, partners and fathers and the very vast majority of them are decent people - flawed perhaps, made some mistakes perhaps but that does not make them violent controlling etc. etc. it makes them human.

Please stop it mumsnet. Certainly attribute blame where it's genuinely due but stop making these awful assumptions it's unhelpful and nasty.

Signing off will be back in a few weeks to see whether or not things have improved - doubt it sadly

its absolutely relevant.

You expect your oppressor to fight for you as a class, so I’m wondering if you do the same for those your class oppresses?

Again, why would you assume I don't?

Ok, just checked back. The example of ‘misandry’ being referred to is still wildly, absurdly mild. It’s basically women on a thread about a man’s surprise illegitimate child saying men often cheat and that they should take responsibility for their contraception. So actually not misandry at all; just factual stuff that happens to be critical of men.

Of course, the worst thing about poor male behaviour is that it makes men look bad. And it’s absolutely hateful of women to point out this bad behaviour.

Come on. These ‘examples of misandry’ are, at worst, women complaining about men to other women. Examples of misogyny are gang rape. Get a grip.

Assumption based on (my) experience, which has happened 100% of the time.

There’s disagreement and there’s persistent disagreement even when presented with evidence, facts and statistics. As seen on this thread. Sometimes you just can’t argue with stupid, hence why the non-starting of a thread.

You're being very contradictory. You are the one that said you see men standing up for women a lot. You then asked me to describe to you what I think it should look like, which I have, and now you're insisting that men can't be expected to do those things.
Being nice sometimes, when it suits them isn't men as a sex class, standing up for women.

Women are always living in a society that centres men and assumes that men can’t have done the thing they are accused of because they appear to be decent.

They also live in a society where y they know they should protect children and a society where reporting of child abuse is easily done if you see it happen.

If you agree most men aren’t decent you also agree they are awful. If you aren’t decent then you are awful. Decent is lowest acceptable bar. You go below that, what are you?

So there’s no inbetween - people are either decent or awful? I never think on those black and white terms

You agree that men don’t challenge poor behaviour that they see and know of, despite being the ones that are most likely to be able to change it.

No I don’t agree that men never challenge poor behaviour

If a man’s perspective is more helpful to you. A man posted here to say he had no clue many women dislike men.

I don’t take it that he represents all men the same way I don’t think the Not My Nigel women represent all women

I haven’t assumed anything. I’ve simply asked you

Have I asked you your race and religion in an attempt to invalidate your opinion?

If you see an earlier earlier post of mine I’ve actually said I don’t think misandry is even a thing.

But you misunderstood that particular post. I don’t know how that’s me saying I agree that misandry is a problem. It isn’t.

I haven’t said men can’t be expected to do those things. When did I say that?
I said people shouldn’t be dictated to on who to vote for in an election.

Which was a silly thing to say, because I didn't say that either.

I don’t think I misunderstood it. Can you explain how?

I’m not thing to invalidate your opinion at all. I’m trying to see if you have different standards for yourself than you do of others.

You can ask me my race and religion I don’t hide it. In fact I’ll just tell you - renounced Catholic, white with mixed race DH and DC. Not religious.

But I don’t expect ALL of the people in my class of oppressors to stand up for me all the time, and beyond not being racist, islamaphobic and antisemitic, I don’t spend all my time making sure other white non-religious ex-Catholics are standing up for those people as a class.

I think @EvilsElsasPetSnowman is clutching at straws at this point. It’s a lot of effort to go to to prove that women are no better than men in terms of behaviour. Especially when she doesn’t believe in misandry. I can’t make head nor tail of it tbh.

You said

Are you saying that getting multiple men to rape your wife is the example of male bad behaviour and women telling a man to wind his neck in when women are having a discussion is the example of female bad behaviour?! And those are the same?? Are you insane

What (I think, you weren’t replying to me) that poster meant is own person said “Look at this extreme example of my all/most men are bad” and when someone else popped on to say “I don’t like how women speak about men” it’s all “you can’t say that! You can’t generalise!”. It’s pointing out a double standard of tarring a whole class of people with the same brush, not comparing the two incidents.

I have never said women are as bad as men.

I just think @Fluufer insistence that the only way men are decent is if they stick up for women as a class all the time is a bit hypocritical if she then doesn’t do the same to who her class oppresses. You can’t just have it one way and give nothing back.

I can’t make head nor tail of it tbh

Ill keep it simple:
Men as a class are a problem
Most individual men are not a problem.
Women as a class are never a problem
Women as individuals can often be a problem

If you want oppressive classes to fight for those whom they oppress, shouldn’t that count for every oppressed class? Or is it just about what YOU want?

Ok well I think you’re misunderstanding what’s happening here.

Women speak badly about the class of men because incidents like the French case show us the scale of the problem (so many men willing to participate, so few prepared to call it out). Class analysis isn’t ‘tarring with the same brush’ It’s class analysis. Tarring with the same brush would be using class analysis to judge an individual man based on class analysis. When speculating about an unknown man whose behaviour seems questionable (surprise illegitimate child man), we would use class analysis to arrive at the most likely explanation. Knowing the individual man might well change this.

How can you not see this?

Saying that 98% of violent crime is committed by men is not ‘tarring with the same brush’. Or are women not allowed to cite these statistics now?

If this is your stance, why on earth have you made such heavy weather of it?

I said pages back that men as a class were the issue, not individual men. You’ve argued with plenty of people who are saying the same.

Final comment or my head will explode,

@EvilsElsasPetSnowman

If you want oppressive classes to fight for those whom they oppress, shouldn’t that count for every oppressed class? Or is it just about what YOU want?

This is pure whataboutery. We’re discussing men’s oppression of women. You have no idea about every poster’s circumstances or actions in other areas. Utterly pointless comment.

With respect I think the latter does happen all the time on here.

You’re just being silly or as I’ve never once said that stat is wrong. I’ve said men as a class are a problem. It’s using the class analysis to deny ANY men can be decent is what irks me and is what, once again, very unhelpful for everyone

Then why is there so much denial that any men can be good because they don’t meet the criteria of alway fighting against misogyny?

Not necessarily from you but from lots of posters here.

Where has anybody denied that there are ANY decent men?

It’s really not whatsbouttery. It’s relevant today, in a world that discriminates against this group. Its entirely fair to ask if a person who expects their oppressors to fight tooth and nail for them, if they do the same for those who they oppress.

I mean my ACTUAL thoughts are that if we get into the “oppressors must prioritise who they oppress” we inevitably get into the oppression Olympics and then every single person is expected to fight for others constantly. It’s why I don’t think identity politics work, and you certainly can’t pick and choose.

And actually YOU are talking about male oppression of women. Which is not what this thread is about. Why can’t I talk about white people’s oppression of black people? Either we can veer of course or we can’t?

I really can’t be arsed copying and pasting but this thread is full of words and insinuation