To stop using Mumsnet for a while because of the constant negative comments about men?

[listsandbudgets]

I've just posted a thread about my missing (now turned up) friend. So many posters assuming that her DP was violent, controlling etc. etc.

Someone else posted about their DP getting a letter from child maintenance about a child he'd never met - again people slagging him of for "sowing his oats" implying he'd been violent and god knows what.

That's just 2 examples. There are some horrible men out there of course there are but it makes me so sad to see this constant underlying misandry here on mumsnet. Men our are sons, brothers, partners and fathers and the very vast majority of them are decent people - flawed perhaps, made some mistakes perhaps but that does not make them violent controlling etc. etc. it makes them human.

Please stop it mumsnet. Certainly attribute blame where it's genuinely due but stop making these awful assumptions it's unhelpful and nasty.

Signing off will be back in a few weeks to see whether or not things have improved - doubt it sadly

With respect I think that could be seen as projecting. It’s fine to teach boys values and to ask them to safely call out bad behaviour (this is something I tell my DD too) but it’s not, IMO, to tell them they’re part of an awful class of human and therefore by default they need to do better.

“Ranting” in my view means having a moan about men or women overall and inevitably tarring them all with the same brush because the actions of a few.

Unlike others I don’t think the “vast majority” of men are awful people. Call it luck or choice but I’ve surrounded myself with very few of those. As a CSA survivor I am aware of the evils of men but I don’t assume other random men are just as bad as my abuser for example.

I only know that my brother is good to me. That my boss is pleasant to me. That my dad was good to me. That my Grandad was the best in the world to me. The key is TO ME. The way the odds lie, I'm aware that it will not be a universal experience shared by everyone.
At this very moment in time, someone's wonderful dad is viewing sexual child abuse online. Someone's wonderful husband is shagging an escort in the marital home whilst his pregnant wife is visiting her parents. Someone's son pushed his girlfriend and called her a fat cunt...
Ignorance is bliss.
NO ONE has a full deck of wonderful men.

P. S.
If anyone of the posters truly believe and can vouch that all the men in their lives are honest, decent, capable and harmless - could you please make a builder team out of them? Asking for myself and the country as a whole. Thank you.

@EvilsElsasPetSnowman
Would you accept a father ranting about women in front of his daughters? Would you accept that is damaging?

What are you imagining this hypothetical father to be saying about women?! The pp you quote works with abused women; her issues with abusive men are entirely justified. A father ‘ranting’ about women would have no similar systemic issues with women. Individual women might do dreadful things but women as a group do not pose the risks or indulge in the disgusting behaviours of men.

I think some of the boy mums have constructed a straw man. No one has advocated ‘vilifying little boys’, no one. I would not want to vilify teenage boys either. Or individual men.

But men as a group are the cause of the biggest humanitarian crisis the world has ever seen. Men as a group.

And we have to be extremely careful how we bring up the next generation of boys because this is the culture that’s shaping them. They receive messaging from when they’re tiny telling them it’s good to be boisterous, that they’re entitled to more space and to make more noise than girls. Then when they get online they’ve got that whole horror show to deal with.

No one’s saying it’s your son’s fault.

You're wrong if you think i was being passive aggressive in the slightest. I have 3 genuinely sweet little boys of my own.
But I'm well aware that they will not always be a sweet little boys.

I get annoyed about the constant slagging off of MILs. And it's always the husbands mother, not the wife's mother.

I've just read @BalletCat's post about her experiences at work. That's one woman's experience and I've no reason to think she's lying. By contrast, I've worked in majority male teams and majority female - all female in some cases. Always good.

I've had two hideous bully bosses, one male and one male. All the others, both sexes, were brilliant.

As a worker who says she prefers male company, respects women less, etc, she finds she can work happily in a male team but found the female team chaotic, argumentative and inefficient. Now she may just have been very unlucky, but shite teams of any sex are a symptom of bad management. I think BalletCat said she was the manager? So her female team's problems were very likely connected to her contempt for them as women. Sexism, in short.

I think you misunderstand feminism. Because while I would personally not be cheering on any SAHP who took advantage of a working partner (and I'd be amazed if you have accurately represented both secenario and responses here, because SAHMs are typically held to high standards of accountability for their lives on MN) neither would I see the plight of poor high earning Nigel who's wife wants him to do domestics as anything the feminist movement needs to concern itself with. You need to keep in mind where the real power lies in the relationship. Nigel pays the piper, and in reality should he wish to call the tune, all he needs is to do so. He really doesn't need a flurry of hand wringing from MNetters to support him. Pretty much the whole of our society is geared around the interests of men, with men from his demographic (middle class, Big Job) at the top of the heirarchy. Feminism is a movement to support women, so why you would expect it to centre the intetests of privileged men who's wives may be being unreasonable, I really can't fathom.

I think it's got a lot better in recent decades, but then the misogyny has just moved to the internet more.

I never had catcalling etc. from men when I was younger, but a lot of random abuse, men in the street swearing at me, shouting or threatening me as I walked past. Looking back, perhaps it was because I didn't conform to their perception of how a woman should look (I have dark hair, small breasts, only wear trousers and trainers).

Totally agree.

It’s perfectly fine to say men as a class are a problem, but individual men/boys are wonderful and acknowledge that about them. Otherwise it’s tarring everyone with the same brush.

I can’t say I’ve ever come across this attitude in the workplace (and I’ve worked in all female and all-male-except me) environments

I work with a total twat of a woman who has displayed disgraceful behaviour I’ve seen in other women before. I wouldn’t ever say “all people who say they have nice women in their lives are deluded”

Yes her issues with abusive men are, but to rant to her sons IMO is not. I’m personally not interested in crushing my son’s self esteem by, despite him doing being a demonstrably good person, saying “yeah but you’re male, other males do this so you’ll probably be a shithouse one day”. Because that’s the message a 7yo would get.

Im betting most of you are white - do you tell your sons and daughters that they are part of a racist, oppressive class even if they’ve never shown any propensity towards racism? After all white people as a class ARE oppressive. So I hope you’re all telling them that?

You absolutely should be teaching your white kids that though. In an age appropriate way of course.

I assure you little boys are very much vilified on MN.

And yes men as a class are a problem. The same as white people as a class are a problem. But behaving like women are infalliable and men will inevitably commit awful sexist crimes, is unrealistic and unhelpful.

I didn’t think anyone was saying it’s my son’s fault - but the sneery “Yeah right sure he’s lovely but you wouldn’t think he was remarkable if he were a GIRL” is just rather silly, TBH. It’s like it REALLY gets some MNers backs up that some boys/men are liked and even good. I said in my first post that there is a lot of projection on MN, and I think some of the posts that follow really do demonstrate that.

Why are assuming I have white kids?

And I’ll parent how I wish thank you. Personally I don’t think these identity politics have done our society the least bit good

That was meant in general, not necessarily your white kids specifically.
Way to intentionally miss the point.

Well my kids are mixed race as is their dad. I don’t tell them to look out for white people, nor does DH. as I said i don’t think identity politics is always helpful and I’m not into scaremongering them either by making out the vast majority of their peers are a problem.

Maybe I’m deluded or maybe I just know decent people but I also don’t know anyone who’s ever said “boys will be boys” or has encouraged boisterous behaviour from their sons, or has taught them that they’re a cut above girls. We ARE changing the way we raise sons, but IMO we can’t burden them with the mistakes of those before us. Sending the message that they’re inevitable failures is not productive in any way.

And I actually don’t think I missed the point I think you did aim that at me. Otherwise you’d have used completely different language. But you know what they say about assuming…

You'll have to teach them about it eventually. Better they learn it from you than from experience. But like you said, you don't need to be told how to parent.

No one had yet clarified what they mean by 'rant' so I'm not sure whether you'd consider the discussions I have with my sons unreasonable or not by your definition. If it helps, they dont, and are often the ones to intitiate them. Certainly at 7 their self esteem was high and still is into adulthood. However, it's not rooted in their biological sex, it's about whether they are good people, well regarded, make a difference and so on. I'm not sure having high self esteem about being a man would have occurred to them. Men are typically seen as superior anyway in most spheres of society, so its not something I imagine many feeling bad about. And yes, we are a predominantly white family. And yes, we discuss white privilege and the way people of colour are subject to oppression due to their race. Also ablism, ageism, homophobia and class and wealth in equalities.

With the greatest of respect you are not the paragon of parenting. I don’t “have to” do anything. I’ll do my thing and worry about my tribe, you do yours. The fact I have kind, confident and level headed children, tells me I’m doing something right so I’ll keep rolling with my way rather than give them a complex.

And I’m also not a parent who is shitting myself in case my child has an adverse experience. Thats life, we all have to go through hard times and protecting children from anything bad ever happening is not good for them.

You’re asking the wrong person, I’m not the one who originally stated they rant to their children so you’ll have to ask the other poster what they meant.

No, I'm asking the person who just used the word 'rant' with reference to what they thought I should and shouldn't say to my sons, which was you. You said that in your opinion it would not be right for me to 'rant', so I'm interested to know what YOU mean by the term, so I know if we have a shared understanding of what you believe shouldnt be done.

But… that’s exactly what most sensible feminists do! We acknowledge that men as a class present a problem but that each individual man should be judged on his merits. That’s it.