To stop using Mumsnet for a while because of the constant negative comments about men?

[listsandbudgets]

I've just posted a thread about my missing (now turned up) friend. So many posters assuming that her DP was violent, controlling etc. etc.

Someone else posted about their DP getting a letter from child maintenance about a child he'd never met - again people slagging him of for "sowing his oats" implying he'd been violent and god knows what.

That's just 2 examples. There are some horrible men out there of course there are but it makes me so sad to see this constant underlying misandry here on mumsnet. Men our are sons, brothers, partners and fathers and the very vast majority of them are decent people - flawed perhaps, made some mistakes perhaps but that does not make them violent controlling etc. etc. it makes them human.

Please stop it mumsnet. Certainly attribute blame where it's genuinely due but stop making these awful assumptions it's unhelpful and nasty.

Signing off will be back in a few weeks to see whether or not things have improved - doubt it sadly

I feel like I live with a disconnect between the men I read about in the news/on mumsnet and the men who I actually know in real life. I have grandfather's, my dad, my brothers, brothers in law, my partner and my 8 year old son ,and friend's husbands who (as far as I know) are all good men. But at the same time I know the world is full of bad men.

One thing I don't want to do is rant about men in front of my child because I agree with others that could be damaging for little boys. But happy to come on mumsnet and tell others to LTB.

It’s the whole “poor UK women, that never happened to me here” - you must see how problematic that is? Do you realise it isn’t UK specific? It’s very much Dow playing Irish violence against women too.

Yes it’s terrible, and shouldn’t be happening. some countries are reducing the age of consent to nine which I think is far more shocking, and once again a product of disgusting men. I don’t think pretending the U.K. is the epicentre of misogyny is especially helpful though

Thank you 🙏 I think it’s important to talk about the reality of what many women live because government is doing nothing about mens behaviour, and it can really be this bad.

This is on the outskirts of a major city in the uk, I’m only here for schools so freedom awaits thankfully. Thank you for your kind words 💖

Same. My 7yo son is genuinely the nicest, most caring and empathetic person I know. I sometimes think he’s too caring and worry he will be taken advantage of one day. I don’t equate him with evil men because the world isn’t that black and white. I also didn’t equate my lovely grandad who was 88 when he died and one of the most progressive people I’d ever known, with bad men. I DO equate my friend’s DH who was horrifically abusive and who I’m no longer friends with because he banned me from her life after I raised concerns. I know bad men exist at epidemic levels - I think people struggle to accept this because of their lovely men.

I also think some people (sadly often it’s women) have very low standards of men and therefore think their half wit medicore lump of a husband is a good man because he changed a nappy and makes her cups of tea, ignoring the fact that he’s good for little else.

I still don’t get the demonising of little boys on MN though. It does happen all the time and it’s very peculiar behaviour. Writing boys off before they reach adulthood is odd

What do you mean by 'ranting about men' damaging your sons though? I ask this as a mother of sons, and someone who is pretty vocal about issues with male behaviour, on here and in real life. I've worked with vulnerable women my entire career, almost all of whom are survivors of abuse by men. My sons have grown up knowing what I do, and why my job exists. They are adults now, and fully aware I believe that male behaviour is a huge problem in our society. They agree, as you'd expect from intelligent men who keep up with the news. Perhaps I'm not fully understanding what you mean when you say 'ranting' (because the term is thrown out at lot as a belittling way to describe women speaking or discussing so to some extent has lost its true meaning) but I can tell you with certainty the negativity I've shown around male problem behaviour has not damaged my sons in the slightest. In fact I like to think its made them more aware and empathic towards women.

Would you accept a father ranting about women in front of his daughters? Would you accept that is damaging?

Im assuming that poster meant a child as well

I obviously don't think we should be demonizing little boys, but we do need to be raising them in knowledge that this is man's world. We can be the sweetest children, and we can the be the best parents, but the outside world will influence them. It will already be happening at 7. The only way to counter it is to address it with them from the start.

Sweet little boys grow up into men in a patriarchy. If we're not teaching them about all that this means, they will become another generation of passive bystanders at best.

I know and I often look at awful men and wonder what kind of children they were. The worst men I know personally were almost always from a background of deprivation or abandonment or a home with drugs etc.

I just don’t agree with writing them off or telling them that they are part of a problem when they 7 years old. There’s other ways to deal with the Man Problem far more effectively than leaving it in the hands of small children to tackle

I have to stay off twitter since it turned male dominated, you are just bombarded with hatred of women, how they shouldn't vote, how they have no other purpose in life but to please men, how we are childlike, incapable of rational thought, how rape is often our fault etc. After seeing what male dominated discussion platforms are like, I can't get upset about women warning other women that men can cause them harm

Twitter is done. It’s hateful and the misogyny and antisemitism is completely alarming. Yes it’s just idiots behind screens but it’s so influential with the incel/Nazi generation.

Move over to blue sky - so many people ditching Twitter for it, myself included

I disagree actually. At 7, there will be massive differences in behavior and treatment of girls and boys. A lot of this problematic male behavior will already be ingrained.
Not so much telling them that they are the problem, but making them aware of the context of their existence.
For example your sweet little boy, would his behavior be remarkable for a girl? Or would it just be expected?

Like I say, I'm not sure there's necessarily a consensus on what constitutes ranting?
But if you mean would I accept a man who had spent 30 years working with survivors of abuse committed by women, with their life altering injuries, their trauma from rape, imprisonment, forced substance addiction, forced prostitution, all at the hands of women... Who watched the news with his daughters and heard of huge numbers of men attacked and murdered by women.....Who heard the head of the police force call female violence a national epidemic....Whose daughters told him there were women on the Internet who were calling upon young women to force men to have sex with them and to otherwise subjugate them to show those men who was boss....
If such a man existed and he chose to be vocal to his daughters about his concern and anger at female behaviour, then yes, that would be acceptable to me.

What do you mean by 'ranting' @EvilsElsasPetSnowman ? I talk to my sons about how they can be part of a better world by not allowing shitty male behaviour to pass. How by calling mates out, by distancing themselves from their friends' problematic male behaviour, they can make the world a better, safer place for men AND women.

They are aware of my history of trauma at the hands of problematic men - indeed, they've suffered too - but I've made it very clear that poor male behaviour cannot exist in a vacuum. That other men actively telling perpetrators of poor behaviour that they're out of order, is how we effect positive change. Remember, all it takes for evil to flourish, is for good men to stand by and do nothing.

That's message I have given my sons. Is that 'ranting'?

I do get what you mean because my parents are social workers and I think it has made me more understanding of certain things.

But I still think at 8 years old my son should probably believe that I think men in this world are good people, for his own self worth and belief in himself that he can be a good man when he grows up. If I had a really negative attitude towards men in general around him I think it could chip away at him.

I grew up believing the men in my life were good, decent people.
In terms of male behaviour I think they are mostly good, but there is still everyday misogyny that most don’t really recognise, and in male only company they still take part in sexist banter (having overheard it).
I have worked as the only woman in a male environment for years, and it is eye opening. For example, lovely Nigel (not his real name) has been married for nearly 20 years, has three children aged around 5-13, is a devoted husband, a good dad, hands on at home, a really decent bloke.
At work, where I am no longer considered a woman as I’ve been there long enough to be part of the furniture, he will partake in banter with the other men about Taylor Swift’s legs, betting that she’d swallow etc. prostitute jokes, real misogynistic shit about women, discussing his sex life (remember this is one man I’m describing, they’re all in on this), showing everyone photos of his wife in sexy underwear . I’ve given up complaining, there is no HR, we all work alongside each other. If I didn’t love my job I’d have left. It’s not ideal but I’m used to it, started as a 20 something who didn’t really know any better and didn’t know there was anything wrong with this kind of talk, as a young woman I was flattered that I was accepted as one of the lads.
It hits differently when you have a daughter. It then feels tricky when you have a very skilled but very niche job that you can’t just leave.
These men are nearly all family men, some are grandparents. Working within a group of men really opens your eyes that even the good ones are shits.

For every woman who says their dad, grandad, husband, brothers etc are all good men and would never be like this, well, you’re very naive, and haven’t had the dubious pleasure of experiencing men in a man only situation.
Over the years it certainly changes how you feel.

I think it possible to believe there are good men AND that there are behaviours demonstrated almost exclusively by men that are very bad indeed. And that its important to take great care not to behave that way. Because you will meet a lot of men who do, so it seems like it's normal, and you need to always remember it's not OK.
It's not a predeterminist stance, it's a bit like the ghost of Christmas future...this is a possibility, but you have complete power over whether it becomes your future.

Agree. The vast majority of men are NOT decent people. Time and again I have witnessed a man showing his true colours,i.e. running women down, making derogatory remarks about victims of rape and DV. I would say that a very small minority of men are actually decent people. And a sizable number of women are not very nice either.

So we immediately judge a person based on whether they are man or woman, rather than "by the content of their character."
Ring any bells?

As the mother to a thoughtful, caring, loving, son I agree some of the things posted on this forum worry me a lot.

I also have or have had a husband, father and brother who are some of the best people I have ever met.

Yes some men do awful things. The rape studies posted are dreadful but that is not my experience of men in general.

But I don't want my son growing up in a world where men are automatically vilified just because they are men.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that

So, I agree the the OP but without the flouncyness

This is interesting. You see, the men of my acquaintance whom I consider good men tend to have experienced this kind of misogyny in other men and have been very disturbed and distraught, all the more because their refusal to join in has made it difficult for them to navigate school, university or workplaces, although they found their niches socially in time (because, thankfully, there are men who are feminists, although they're not the massive majority they ought to be).

I wouldn't call Nigel in your description anything approaching an acceptable human being, yet alone a good man, if he participates or stands by hearing such comments.

Well OP.
My real dad abandoned me and my mum when I was a baby.

My step dad beat my mum and sister black and blue and tortured me.

My first romantic encounter with a boy at age 15 eneded in rape.

I was sexually assaulted at college, at work, in the streets and in night clubs, ranging from arse slapping to actual assault and penetration.

I have been raped on 5 seperate ocassions by men.

I have been catcalled countless times.

I have been bullied by men in the workplace.

I have been stalked by a very violent man.

I have been a victim of domestic violence.

I have had businesses destroyed by jealous, petty men.

I have been forced to quit jobs I loved because of bullying men/men who sexually harassed me.

I have PTSD and cPTSD from my experiences and on disability benefits. It has only just come out that I have also been AuDHD all along and at age 47, I've only just been assessed. Why? Because the men who described and studied autism were massive sexists who couldn't be arsed to do any research to include women and girls on the spectrum, so I am part of the "lost generation" of women who fell through every crack. All due to men ignoring women's health.

So for me, I'm not very fond of men as a sex class, and try to stay away from them as much as possible.

Unfortunately op, most posters on here have double standards when it comes to men.

@Twangy Yes exactly.this! There was a thread on here the other day from a "SAHP". Well, all her kids were at school so go figure.
Anyway, a huge proportion of posters thought it was appalling that her husband, despite working very long hours and then coming home to log back on of an evening to finaincially support the entire family, said he thought it was unfair she wanted to go out two nights a week socialising. Oh, and he also was expected to do a lot of the housework at.the weekends.
Come on - we all know what the responses would have been the other way around!!
Feminism my arse.

Of course it would. I do have a girl who is kind and polite, I wouldn’t change her - but she doesn’t have half the empathy her brother has, she can be quite selfish and I’ve had to check her a few times for her lack of empathy. If the tables were turned I’m sure MNers would be queueing up to tell me my son is abusive.

I don’t agree with you about schooling perfectly lovely 7yo boys that they will need to do better. Your passive aggressive use of “sweet little boy” and your unsuccessful attempt at a “gotcha” is very sad indeed - rather than believing a 7yo boy can be sweet, you assume that it must be the parent who’s got her standards of her child skewed. I think that’s sad and very unhelpful to both boys and girls. The infantilisation of women and girls is just as unhelpful.