To stop using Mumsnet for a while because of the constant negative comments about men?

[listsandbudgets]

I've just posted a thread about my missing (now turned up) friend. So many posters assuming that her DP was violent, controlling etc. etc.

Someone else posted about their DP getting a letter from child maintenance about a child he'd never met - again people slagging him of for "sowing his oats" implying he'd been violent and god knows what.

That's just 2 examples. There are some horrible men out there of course there are but it makes me so sad to see this constant underlying misandry here on mumsnet. Men our are sons, brothers, partners and fathers and the very vast majority of them are decent people - flawed perhaps, made some mistakes perhaps but that does not make them violent controlling etc. etc. it makes them human.

Please stop it mumsnet. Certainly attribute blame where it's genuinely due but stop making these awful assumptions it's unhelpful and nasty.

Signing off will be back in a few weeks to see whether or not things have improved - doubt it sadly

One of the many depressing things in the Gisele case is that not one of the men that turned down the offer to rape her thought they might report it and save her....

The Gisele case is utterly terrifying. It’s the sheer number of them. Not a good one amongst them.

I find this so depressing. Why frame the problem in this way? Is there not enough evidence in the world that men will oppress women given half the chance?

Feminists hate this oppression more than anything. They also hate it when people deny that it exists. If those deniers are women - well, yes, there’s a sort of disbelief that someone on their team cannot see the problem.

But the problem is still men.

In this forum, we are discussing things as people surely? That’s one of the key differences between feminists and misogynists; feminists see women as complete human beings with whom they can have a meaningful conversation. We’re not going to pretend we agree with women who are objecting to the very basis of feminism.

Disagree all you want, but at least attempt to back up what you say or put some effort into what you’re claiming, instead of shitty little soundbites that offer little. That’s what annoys feminists.

Denying and disagreeing are two different things.

Indeed. Such a self sabotaging way to disagree. Anyone new to the debate who hasn't yet formed their opinion is simply going to see multiple detailed posts setting out the issues, countered by..."feminists are just nasty though" and presumably conclude that's because there is no opposing argument. They would do more good for their cause by maintaining a discrete silence in the face of what they are clearly unable to defend.

Ok… but, as another poster has suggested, snappy, unexplained sound bites are adding little to the discussion.

Can you elaborate?

I mean, if I say men are the cause of worldwide oppression of women and you say no they’re not, you’re both disagreeing with me and denying my assertion. So in that case they’re essentially the same.

What did you mean?

How, in the context of the post you've responded to? You could substitute 'disagree it exists' for 'deny it exists' and the meaning would be exactly the same, surely?

Not always.

Well I am a man and it doesn't bother me.

(And if anyone wants to know why I'm on here it's because Dadsnet and Gransnet are so dull.)

That was a single case so horrific it made the international press.

Anonymous surveys will show anyone will say they will do anything "if they can get away with it". I'd put zero faith in any such survey on any subject under the Sun.

This sort of thinking makes no sense to me.

Firstly, I have never seen a post where a sahm to school age kids, who think their struggling husband shouldn’t continue to work and be solely financially responsible for the whole AND do half the childcare and housework, and have most posters on MN agree with them.

You later go on to talk about women marrying rich husbands and taking advantage. Or maybe, just maybe they both fulfill needed roles. It suits the man to be sole earner and not worry about school runs and cleaning the toilet. And it suits the woman to be at home.

The man still has the power there. He can still walk away and as he is the one earning and making them rich, he will likely be fine. And if we are talking very rich people. They have cleaners and Nannie’s. So the whole ‘work and do half the house work’ wouldn’t even happen.

You consider women marrying rich men and not working as taking advantage. Do you consider rich men marrying less rich women, asking them to grow and carry their children and then take majority of the day to day care for the children and the house as taking advantage?

Plus there’s very few rich men. There are a small portion of men as a whole. Even less that are marrying women that don’t have their own money behind them. Where have you go that this is applies to a lot of rich men? I know quite a few multi millionaires, through work. All but one has a wife who has her own career. And that one whose wife doesn’t work, has her own independent wealth and together they have grown a huge amounts of money and assets outside his business. Much of which is her achievement, since he is running a huge company and focuses there.

I have always worked. I out earn dp multiple times over. I out earned my exh. But I don’t get this thinking that the majority of women have managed (or try to) con wealthy men in to marriage so they can have kids, not work and still make their husbands do half the housework.

Do you think dp must automatically be taking advantage of me? Because he has a partner who has her own assets and money?

Please do not misquote me. Kids push - girls and boys. It’s playground hijinks, they’re 5, but I only ever see concerns on here when boys do it to girls.

Oh do calm down

It’s not stupidity. And you’ve displayed exactly my point. 5yo boys are perpetrators and girls are the victims if they’re pushed but it happens plenty the other way round and I’ve seen people applaud girls for not taking shit off boys 🙄

Similarly with teens on MN - I’ve seen posts about horrible teenagers being nasty and verbally abusive to the mum. With girls OP is told to be patient and understanding and take her shopping. With boys he’s abusive, will beat women one day and she should kick him out or call the police. It’s pathetic

Ok, so you’re a mum of boys. But can you be objective here instead of defensive?

Once you accept that there is a huge, entrenched problem by which the male sex class oppresses the female sex class, it makes sense to look at how that is perpetuated and how it can be changed.

Do you accept the basic premise that male control and oppression has been and continues to be a blight on women’s lives?

If not, I actually don’t think there’s much point in arguing with you.

If you do accept that, then surely you can see that it makes sense to examine how we bring up our boys? This gender imbalance starts alarmingly early. And brushing off boys’ violence to each other and to girls is a huge problem. In your (hypothetical?) examples, people are trying to nip male violence in the bud. Is that bad or wrong? Male violence is a huge problem for women and girls.

Why do you think I only have boys??

Do you accept the basic premise that male control and oppression has been and continues to be a blight on women’s lives?

Of course, I’m not a moron.

But to label 5yo boys as abusive misogynists and openly treating teenage boys different to girls - well how does that help? Do we automatically assume that all little boys are future misogynists and raise them in punishment.

Surely it’s better to teach everyone at 5 to be nice to everyone else regardless of sex?

And brushing off boys’ violence to each other and to girls is a huge problem

Playground hijinks from 5yos, be it boys or girls is not “violence” FFS. Why hold little kids to the standards of adults?

Funnily enough with all my kids when they’ve experienced bullying and “violence” it’s only ever been from girls

There’s tons of posts calling female teen children abusive and nasty and so on. Let’s pretend there isn’t.

Not just on MN. But they are here.

Think about what you posted. A boy pushes someone and because a parent complains you level an insult at the girl in the situation.

Why?

If all kids push and shove, why did you make your post about the sex. Boys push girls, girls get upset and girls parents complain and it’s the girls fault and her parents fault.

But you think all kids push people over. so if a little girl or boy pushes your son over and you don’t speak to the teachers, how does that make you a superior person or parent?

Are you suggesting parents of girls target little boys? When a boy behaves in an unacceptable way, anyone complaining is targeting because they are boys?

Do parents of boys never complain? How many times has this happened with your kids that you believe parents of girls target boys? maybe parents of boys are less likely to complain because of the damaging stereotypes that impact both boys and girls. That doesn’t make it ok.

it’s not the responsibility of the boy to act appropriately or the boys parents to actually deal with it? They are fine. They aren’t causing an issue. It’s the parents complaining that’s the issue. And the girls being hurt?

Are you saying it’s only boys that do this?

I have a girl and a boy. At 5 neither was pushing other kids over. neither were perfectly well behaved but they knew appropriate behaviour and knew there would be consequences for doing things like that. Not simply ‘ah well kids’.

But sometimes.

I will agree with this. All the bullying I have ever experienced at school, at extra curricular activities and at work has been perpetrated by girls and women.

I have never been bullied by a boy.

I've had a few shitty relationships that I have left and a shitty manager whos sexism got corrected by HR after reporting him.

But the long term, self esteem/confidence crushing bullying that made my cry every morning and not want to go to school and later on work, all women.

I have always preferred male company for this reason.

During lockdown our team was split into two and we worked half the week each to reduce the number of people working in our space. We were split by gender to make changing easier so we weren't all crammed in one changing room together. The male team all bombed along calmly and cheerfully. The female team I was responsible for leading was fucking chaos. Any instructions given were met with fury and outrage whereas the male team just accepted them. We had crying and arguing most days while the male team got on. My experience of women is that if you have too many in one place they start attacking eachother, they are much more civilised in mixed company.

When you consider that teenage girls are routinely treated differently (and worse) than teenage boys, it kind of makes sense to try to redress this in how we bring up boys.

Girls are held to a higher standard. Definitely.

Full disclosure: I’m a teacher of teenagers. Also a mum to a teenage girl.

I see how boys rule the roost. How they sneer at girls and feel much more confident than girls in most classrooms. It’s a microcosm of the wider world.

I don’t blame these boys as such. I have a good relationship with the boys I teach. I like them!

But I have to, for example, come down hard on them when they’re sniggering and enjoying the misogynistic treatment of Curley’s wife in Of Mice and Men. I let them know the depths of my disgust for these attitudes. I don’t have to do that with the girls because, funnily enough, they already get it. Their behaviour doesn’t warrant the same reaction.

You say Funnily enough with all my kids when they’ve experienced bullying and “violence” it’s only ever been from girls

Well, I don’t know what you expect us to do with this irrelevant bit of anecdotal evidence (since it isn’t borne out in wider society) except to infer that you kind of have it in for girls because of some personal experience.

There's been what 200 posters on this thread, and 2 of them think it's females that are the problem. Everyone else's bad experiences are at the hands of men. That ties in nicely with the actually statistics, rather than anecdotes, which is 99% of violence is perpetrated by males.

@BalletCat ah yes your anecdotal experience really does stand up against the statistics there.

98% of sexual assaults are committed by men.

8 out 10 sexual assaults in secondary schools are committed by boys.

We weren't discussing sexual assault, we were discussing bullying.

Everyone saying that most men are not decent, I presume your sons are exempt from this? Of course they are. They could never.

Some people find boys annoying.