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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A baby red panda at Edinburgh zoo choked on her own vomit in terror at the fireworks last week

265 replies

OptimismvsRealism · 13/11/2024 23:06

Aibu to think the time has come to ban this bullshit?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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HRTQueen · 14/11/2024 07:58

winersrollingin · 13/11/2024 23:22

Maybe we should ban red pandas being stuck in a zoo in Scotland which is entirely not their climate and a miserable existence for them

Agree this is more the issue

kirbykirby · 14/11/2024 08:01

Do you mean ban fireworks in general or ban bonfire night OP?

Serencwtch · 14/11/2024 08:02

We are sheep farmers and every day we are searching the fields for the foetuses of lambs lost as a result of the organized fireworks display over the farm last week.
It's heart wrenching finding a ewe desperately licking a partly formed foetus that had zero chance of survival, trying to bring it to life.

This wil go on for several weeks now & we will pay for it in the spring as every aborted pregnancy means we lose money affecting our livelihood

This display was organized by a school who made a massive hooha over the kids eating halal meat as it 'caused suffering ' but were absolutely okay causing this level of distress & suffering to animals.

We have no way of knowing how many wild animals suffer worse fates as a result of fireworks as there's no one there to see it.

There needs to be restrictions on noise levels & exclusion zones around zoos, farms, fields/stables housing horses & other prey animals, animal rescue centres and areas where there is endangered wildlife

DdraigGoch · 14/11/2024 08:05

Trobealone · 14/11/2024 07:27

@OptimismvsRealism
I think there are many, many ways that humans cause animals to suffer.

-confined/unnatural living conditions
-crop and food production (pet food production in itself causes huge global carbon footprint)
-night time lighting
-destroying habitats
-introducing foreign species
-pollution
-climate change

I’d argue that owning a dog causes more unintended harm than releasing a firework.

And I think humans are causing issues for red pandas in far greater ways than fireworks.

There are much bigger problems to be addressed, so if we moan about fireworks - are we also looking at the far greater issues of the problems we cause by owning a car/pet/food consumption/travel/mass consumerism.

This is whataboutery. The fact is that the public sale of fireworks poses a hazard to wildlife and humans alike. Yobs stick them through letterboxes or fire them at the emergency services. Idiots have accidents and end up in hospital. They should be restricted to licenced events only.

It's not in the least bit comparable to eating animals for food.

DdraigGoch · 14/11/2024 08:08

Serencwtch · 14/11/2024 08:02

We are sheep farmers and every day we are searching the fields for the foetuses of lambs lost as a result of the organized fireworks display over the farm last week.
It's heart wrenching finding a ewe desperately licking a partly formed foetus that had zero chance of survival, trying to bring it to life.

This wil go on for several weeks now & we will pay for it in the spring as every aborted pregnancy means we lose money affecting our livelihood

This display was organized by a school who made a massive hooha over the kids eating halal meat as it 'caused suffering ' but were absolutely okay causing this level of distress & suffering to animals.

We have no way of knowing how many wild animals suffer worse fates as a result of fireworks as there's no one there to see it.

There needs to be restrictions on noise levels & exclusion zones around zoos, farms, fields/stables housing horses & other prey animals, animal rescue centres and areas where there is endangered wildlife

I realise that you may not have the means to blow on legal advice but could you consider suing for damages?

Bortand · 14/11/2024 08:08

Ostagazuzulum · 14/11/2024 02:41

I'm ok then. I've been brought up as strict vegetarian by vegetarian parents and have never eaten meat. Im good to have an opinion and say it's really not ok to have animals petrified from mindless bangs for our own pleasure?

Thanks

Id give up milk and eggs as well but aye

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 14/11/2024 08:25

Ostagazuzulum · 14/11/2024 01:24

@ThisJoyousFatball

Your hostility throughout this thread just makes me feel sad.

I've no doubt someone at some point will refer to you as a troll and maybe report you. The topic pertains to the death of an living creature due to something that gives less than 30 mins of fun. Not really justifiable in any way. As previous posters rightly pointed out. It has a wider impact on children and adults with neurodiversity and veterans. Some people are just scared. It's fine to have an opposing opinion but there's no need to be so goading and dismissive. Your comments are not only ignorant but it's coming across like you're enjoying provoking people.

Your responses very much present like you have incredibly low emotional intelligence. Not everyone will be an animal lover. But I imagine the majority of those people still wouldn't be comfortable with an animal being distressed. Fireworks are proven to distress lots of animals, often causing a fatal reaction. Are you really ok with that? I'm struggling with that.

I'm not going to judge you as there's always a chance your hostility is not opinion based, but a reflection of your own issues and you're using an anonymous forum to lash out and provoke people as a way to release tension or detract yourself from your own reality. Maybe it's to seek attention, maybe you have mental health issues. Or maybe you're just responding like this to get a reaction to either alleviate boredom or get a response to combat loneliness. Who knows. Maybe it's none of those things and you're just a bad person. I don't know. We can only but wonder and I suppose it's irrelevant but I would honestly urge you to think about what you've said.

I appreciate I don't know your background or what you've been through. But I will tell you my background. I don't usually discuss this element of my life but since this is anonymous I'm hopeful it might make you more considerate. I don't want sympathy, I just would like to try and make you understand.

I'm ex military. It was obviously my choice to join the military and expose myself to certain conditions and I wouldn't change that part of my life for anything. I enjoyed it. I served in 8 tours inc conflict. I returned home from a tour of Iraq in october 2024. During that tour I was shot at, lived with rpg's flying over my head, dealt with colleagues being killed, had first hand experience of IEDs and saw things I wouldn't want others to see. It may sound dramatic to you but it's quite simply fact and quickly became the norm for a lot of us. On the surface, it didn't really bother me. At the time it was a job, it fuelled adrenaline, I was young, and blasé I just cracked on. I was a lucky one who didn't get MH issues from what I saw and have a strong resilience. If anything I was a bit dead on inside and very much thought I was last person who'd have an issue.

a few weeks after my tour ended and I got back to England it was bonfire night. I was excited to be home and catch up with everyone and I've always loved a good firework (not bothered about bangs but I do very much enjoy the colours and lights and atmosphere).

After over half a year being exposed to rpgs / gunfire/ and ieds in Iraq, it become a regular part of life, I didn't understand that my normal for so long was to be on high alert. I thought I'd get back to the uk and life would go back to normal as usual after like any other tour (I'd been on tours before inc Kosovo war so not my first ball game!)

That firework night was horrific. The first bang made me drop to the floor. I was constantly on edge despite logically knowing I was safe. I thought I'd lost my mind and was embarrassed. I could write reems of how I felt that night, the lack of control, the fear. The argument in my brain that it's a fireworks night and it's fun, and the other side telling me I was under attack.

That night couldn't be over quick enough for me. I didn't tell the people I was with. I was mortified. They laughed about me dropping to the floor initially and my oddness that night was overlooked. Afterwards I dismissed it as I'd just got back to uk so just muscle memory. I wasn't bothered by what happened on tour so took it to be a one off. But it's stayed with me.

I have a DD now who unfortunately for me loves fireworks. I force myself to go for her sake but it is a mental challenge as sometimes I'm fine, just a bit jumpy, sometimes not so fine. I fight through it. Largely because I'm still embarrassed to admit they bother me and bring back memories I don't want to either remember or deal with. I had counselling and I'm generally ok, other things can trigger it but those incidents are few and far between. Fireworks night is an obvious one and at some point during fireworks and new year I know I'm going to have to deal with it.

I'm not weak person. Alot of people who know me would be very surprised by this. I keep my struggles quiet, largely because of people like you. Someone rightly pointed out that fireworks affect veterans. Your response was "Load of old cobblers". "There may be a few Johnny Rambos out there going loco in the jungle when they hear a bang"

You and your ignorance are the reason why so many veterans struggle in silence. The fear of judgment and ridicule from people like you. You might be a veteran yourself or be related to one (I doubt it) i don't know. If you are though, the military family would be extremely ashamed of you.

If you think those WW2 veterans at the remembrance parade on Sunday gone didn't have combat fatigue and at some point didn't need the silence and didn't jump at loud bangs then that's just further evidence of your ignorance.

I joined the emergency services when I left the military. Working Fireworks night if part of the job but it takes a considerable amount of mental willpower and strength to constantly tell myself it's a firework and it's ok. Being at work on fireworks night is actually easier than being at home as working keeps my head busy and detracts me from The bangs and prevent memories being provoked. I'm not loco as you so nicely say, it's a small part of me now that i accept and manage. I'd rather not have to but hey ho.

Sadly my role now means I've seen injuries from fireworks, I've had them fired at me and although theyre pretty. They are dangerous and damaging.

I would love to see fireworks banned from sale to private buyers, silent fireworks only, and only to be used an properly organised licensed events.

And for what it's worth I really love all animals and wouldn't want to see any suffer. I'd rather you missed out of the fun of hearing a loud bang than see a horse petrified in a nearby field or a dog quivering under a table.

I'm resigned to fact that you'll likely respond to this with sarcasm, belittling and dismissive comments. I'm ok with that as it says more about you than me.

Please don't at any point (if you even bother to read this) think you've upset or affected me. You haven't. I'm numb to people like you now. I wanted to reply though in hope of making you think and hopefully stop you affecting others who might either hear or read your ignorant attitude towards veterans who aren't quite as accepting of interpersonally challenged people like yourself. I'm not optimistic based on your previous response to posters very fair and justified opinions but one can but try.

Thank you for posting that.

Trobealone · 14/11/2024 08:26

@DdraigGoch

I was highlighting lots of ways that humans cause problems for wildlife.

I don’t like fireworks, but in the grand scheme of things - I think there are other ways that humans cause far greater problems.
If you want better outcomes for wildlife then banning fireworks will have a minimal impact compared to banning pets.
I don’t think either can be ‘banned’ - I think there are ways to make it safer.

SoiledMyselfDuringSomeTurbulence · 14/11/2024 08:27

Bortand · 14/11/2024 08:08

Id give up milk and eggs as well but aye

And confirm anti zoo stance too.

JohnBinary · 14/11/2024 08:32

Chavvy antisocial behaviour. It's embarrassing to be so lacking in self awareness! I think they should stop being manufactured and only silent ones made.

OptimismvsRealism · 14/11/2024 08:37

kirbykirby · 14/11/2024 08:01

Do you mean ban fireworks in general or ban bonfire night OP?

It's guy fawkes night. Bonfire night has different meanings in different parts of the UK.

And obviously I mean fireworks.

OP posts:
ExtraOnions · 14/11/2024 08:40

Serencwtch · 14/11/2024 08:02

We are sheep farmers and every day we are searching the fields for the foetuses of lambs lost as a result of the organized fireworks display over the farm last week.
It's heart wrenching finding a ewe desperately licking a partly formed foetus that had zero chance of survival, trying to bring it to life.

This wil go on for several weeks now & we will pay for it in the spring as every aborted pregnancy means we lose money affecting our livelihood

This display was organized by a school who made a massive hooha over the kids eating halal meat as it 'caused suffering ' but were absolutely okay causing this level of distress & suffering to animals.

We have no way of knowing how many wild animals suffer worse fates as a result of fireworks as there's no one there to see it.

There needs to be restrictions on noise levels & exclusion zones around zoos, farms, fields/stables housing horses & other prey animals, animal rescue centres and areas where there is endangered wildlife

What a shame … the lambs died too early, before you could take them away from thier mothers and kill them yourself … for money.

Get off your moral high-horse, you are mad because you believe someone killed them before you did.

Born dead .. I would concur is much less stressful than what would have happened to that lamb if it was born alive.

JohnBinary · 14/11/2024 08:40

Serencwtch · 14/11/2024 08:02

We are sheep farmers and every day we are searching the fields for the foetuses of lambs lost as a result of the organized fireworks display over the farm last week.
It's heart wrenching finding a ewe desperately licking a partly formed foetus that had zero chance of survival, trying to bring it to life.

This wil go on for several weeks now & we will pay for it in the spring as every aborted pregnancy means we lose money affecting our livelihood

This display was organized by a school who made a massive hooha over the kids eating halal meat as it 'caused suffering ' but were absolutely okay causing this level of distress & suffering to animals.

We have no way of knowing how many wild animals suffer worse fates as a result of fireworks as there's no one there to see it.

There needs to be restrictions on noise levels & exclusion zones around zoos, farms, fields/stables housing horses & other prey animals, animal rescue centres and areas where there is endangered wildlife

Weren't you going to kill those lambs anyway? Give us a break with the faux heartache! 😂

Topseyt123 · 14/11/2024 08:53

Fireworks should have been banned from public sale years ago. Joe public should not be able to go into the local newsagent or the supermarket and buy what amounts to explosives!

They should be available to licensed displays only. THE END.

dottiedodah · 14/11/2024 09:01

Well we normally have weeks of fireworks.Got away lightly this time.Mostly on 5th and that week .Lots of really loud bangs though .My dog wouldnt go for a wee till 3.30am.I think they should be at displays only .However unlikely to change sadly.Poor little panda .I wonder how birds ,mice squirrels and so on do.

Drivingoverlemons · 14/11/2024 09:08

Poor little panda. And her mother likely died from stress too. I hate fireworks and dislike them even more now.

Regarding baby lambs, they may be born to be reared as meat but this doesn’t mean it’s fine for ewes to go through the trauma of an stress-induced stillbirth.

HoppingPavlova · 14/11/2024 09:19

@StandingSideBySide Im guessing you’re not UK based, I can’t think of a zoo near a harbour?

Really. Couldn’t think of any place that has massive fireworks displays on a harbour environment???

It’s…….. Sydney. To clue you in, we have massive fireworks display every single year at New Years Eve centred around our harbour. Pre Covid, we’d actually get international visitors in the millions, just for this. This is often broadcast around the world as it’s quite brilliant, to be fair (amazing backdrop). Not saying it’s the best, but it’s up there. We make a decent effort😁.

As I said, we have a large zoo right on the harbour. The zoo contains many animals of all sorts. Think of an Arc but much much bigger. These animals are front and centre with an enormous fireworks display. They don’t seem to drop dead. Last time I visited the zoo, there were red panda’s (living).

DdraigGoch · 14/11/2024 09:31

Trobealone · 14/11/2024 08:26

@DdraigGoch

I was highlighting lots of ways that humans cause problems for wildlife.

I don’t like fireworks, but in the grand scheme of things - I think there are other ways that humans cause far greater problems.
If you want better outcomes for wildlife then banning fireworks will have a minimal impact compared to banning pets.
I don’t think either can be ‘banned’ - I think there are ways to make it safer.

Yep, whataboutery. This sounds like a purity spiral where you can't do something to improve things unless everything else is already perfect.

The use of these by yobs who attack the emergency services or members of the public is reason enough to require a licence in my view.

FelixtheAardvark · 14/11/2024 09:42

Why was nobody apparently looking after this rare newborn animal is probably a better question?

motherofbabydragon · 14/11/2024 09:49

@FelixtheAardvark seeing as bonfire night was on the 5th the zoo was probably unprepared for idiots setting them off in their own back garden past the date.

Caerulea · 14/11/2024 10:18

JubileeJuice · 14/11/2024 01:34

I always find it very telling when people do things that they could quite easily not do, even though they know they're causing suffering to living beings.

It's usually a certain "type" that enjoy fireworks, isn't it? "I LIKE BIG BOOM. FLASHY LIGHTS GO BANG". Maybe decades ago when they were new and a novelty, but now? Really? Just another dick extension for weak men who want to have the biggest, loudest bang to impress their imaginary mates. The odd thing is, these are also the types of men who bleat on about our veterans being homeless, poppies on their FB profile, you know the type. Just goes to show they couldn't give a crap about veterans and are just racists

Also, with all the mention of veterans with PTSD, let's not forget people with non-combat PTSD, people with disabilities, people who are very ill with certain diseases, the elderly etc. Jumping out of your skin isn't very nice for them either. I have diagnosed PTSD and a few years ago before I was medicated, I was absolutely hysterical when the fireworks started. It seems silly now, looking back, but I couldn't help my brain chemistry and I really suffered.

Woah there Nelly! That's really rather offensive.

If the majority of ppl didn't like fireworks then there'd be no demand for paid-for events & the silent ones would have taken over already.

As a rule, humans find loud sky noises frightening - it's just nature. The combo of twinkly lights turn that natural fear into a thrill in the same way as roller coasters & hot chillies. It's a scary thing, but you know you're safe. We're also pack animals so standing around with lots of others having the same experience at the same moment is pretty powerful. Think live sports & concerts. Even the pan banging during covid for the NHS - obvs no fear there but the sense of ppl around you doing the same thing at the same time is affirming.

Serencwtch · 14/11/2024 10:21

JohnBinary · 14/11/2024 08:40

Weren't you going to kill those lambs anyway? Give us a break with the faux heartache! 😂

They don't suffer when they are slaughtered.

Animals like sheep are not aware of death & don't understand or fear it.

They do fear pain & suffering & experienced intense suffering during & after fireworks season.

Actually as farmers we are very aware of pain & suffering and do all we can to avoid it. Unlike the idiots letting off fireworks over the farm or the dog owners letting their dogs stray into the fields.

Serencwtch · 14/11/2024 10:29

ExtraOnions · 14/11/2024 08:40

What a shame … the lambs died too early, before you could take them away from thier mothers and kill them yourself … for money.

Get off your moral high-horse, you are mad because you believe someone killed them before you did.

Born dead .. I would concur is much less stressful than what would have happened to that lamb if it was born alive.

Not at all!

I see many hundreds of births & deaths. I see my animals happy & healthy, I see them when they are sick & in pain and see them when they are in extreme distress from being chased by a loose dog or by fireworks. I see all those things & understand my animals.

They don't fear slaughter, they have no ability to understand it. They don't suffer at slaughter. It is quick & painless.

Sad how distanced you have all become where you think it's fine to cause distress & suffering purely for your entertainment but humane slaughter is 'cruel'

How many animals have you seen slaughtered? How many have you seen in pain or suffering distress! I see both & can understand the differences.

Definitely not me on a high horse here.

herecomesautumn · 14/11/2024 10:40

Simonjt · 14/11/2024 05:32

So animal held in prison in an unsuitable environment dies, in the longterm thats the best thing for the animal.

Wherr fireworks are concerned its the animals who aren’t trapped in cages we need to focus on, deer, foxes, badgers etc.

The red pandas in Edinburgh aren't in cages

ifIwerenotanandroid · 14/11/2024 10:52

Okonomoyaki · 13/11/2024 23:23

How about if it were a former service person who had died rather than a red panda? Would you still be so dismissive? Help for Heroes and Combat Stress have both begged people to stop using loud fireworks.

https://ptsdresolution.org/news96.php

Haven't RTFT so don't know if anyone has asked/answered this already.

From the linked page:

Jason believes Bonfire Night should only be marked with proper or official fireworks displays that have a license from the government.
However, the Inquiry ultimately recommended that "While people who want to ban the public from buying and using fireworks have valid concerns that must be addressed, we cannot support a ban before other, less drastic but potentially more effective, options have been fully explored… …it is not appropriate to ban the public from buying and using fireworks at this time, as it would not be a proportionate measure." [1] (my bold)

What are these other options, & have they been implemented?

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