A baby red panda at Edinburgh zoo choked on her own vomit in terror at the fireworks last week

[OptimismvsRealism]

Aibu to think the time has come to ban this bullshit?

They (now just the male Bruce) have a large enclosure with several mature trees that they are usually climbing/sitting in. Wooden boxes for dens. Plenty of places to get away from view if they wish. Never seen them exhibiting any signs of distress and I go several times a year. There is little road noise once you get into the zoo. They are endangered in the wild.

Those drone displays are lovely...and silent. Maybe they will catch on.

Although a farmer upthread has lost lots of animals
and I’m guessing it’s in the interests of the zoo to say it’s not a problem. Didn’t a pp note that they let people use the zoo to watch or something.

It’s a well known fact by animal charities, vets, owners of animals both domestic and farm that loud fireworks are a danger to animals

We can dress it up however we like and call it a den/enclosure - its not their natural habitat is it? They are not free to roam.

Ultimately, having pandas at Edinburgh zoo in the name of conservation is not really working for them. Two are dead and the others were sent back to China after a decade of failed breeding attempts.

@Areolaborealis you do realise in the wild when animals roam far distances it is because their food is depleting. No animal roams because they want to go for a jolly walk. Most see the zoo as the perfect home free of predators and always ample food. None of the zoos these days keep animals in enclosures too small for the species as we all now know it’s not what is best for the animal

@StandingSideBySide Although a farmer upthread has lost lots of animals
and I’m guessing it’s in the interests of the zoo to say it’s not a problem. Didn’t a pp note that they let people use the zoo to watch or something

You really think that a major zoo, governed by all sorts of regulations, and that has to report the death of any animal (or indeed get permission to euthanise unless absolute immediate need) to a national zoological board, is covering up the death of any, let alone ‘lots’ of animals due to fireworks? And no one notices they are missing? Yeeeahh, not sure on that one. I would think there are zero deaths given how highly regulated zoo’s here are in this regard, and it’s a whopper, not some small town half-arsed zoo. Or, are you confused with a Tiger King scenario?

Oh I'm sure the sheep didn't care that her lamb was dead, then, so you don't need to worry yourself!

🤦🏼‍♀️

Christ. Farmers really do live in their own little deluded world, don't they? Of course animals fucking suffer. Sheep are scared of EVERYTHING. They're terrified when they are "herded", terrified when cornered, terrified when they are separated from the other sheep, terrified when being packed into trailers or huge lorries to be moved or driven miles to a slaughterhouse, terrified when you take their babies away from them, terrified when they are forced off the truck to walk into the slaughterhouse with no escape, terrified when slaughterhouse workers don't abide by the law and abuse them before killing them.

Have a look at yourself.

If your sheep are getting distressed by those things then you need to look at how you are farming.
That's not how mine are treated & don't know of any farmers that do that either.

We don't know what happened, maybe the staff were negligent, got the panda killed on their watch and blamed fireworks.

Saying that I'm in favour of banning both fireworks and zoos.

So you don't take the lambs from them or send them to slaughter? Wow, what sort of sheep farming is this? Love it!

Not trying to dress it up, just describe what is actually there. Describing it as a cage with lots of traffic noise is not accurate either. Red Pandas are endangered in the wild. Ginger and Bruce had successfully raised three kits at the zoo their granddaughter now lives there (in another large, well enriched enclosure). Her mum is Ruby who is at Chester Zoo. Quite a successful breeding record.

Yep, totally!

It's the normal practice in British sheep farming. The lambs wean naturally so they aren't taken from the ewe.
They do call for each for about a day when they are separated but not to the point they are distressed.

They load & travel well & are checked for signs of distress.

They do not fear or understand death so aren't distressed by it.

Fireworks & loose dogs cause far more distress & suffering.

Of course animals understanding death. It is bollcks to think that they do not. They see what is happening at the slaughter house and feel fear there too. Humans are not some kind of superior being, we just have the upper hand. If it is cruel to do to a human, it is cruel to do to an animal.

Yes, a lovely experience for pandas at Edinburgh Zoo!

https://www.ashwoodscotland.co.uk/new-panda-enclosures-edinburgh-zoo/
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/15/edinburgh-zoo-leaked-cctv-still-keeper-fleeing-giant-panda-enclosure

@Areolaborealis i doubt this is there full time enclosure. zoos use these for if a panda or other animal is vulnerable and needs more supervised care, be it that they are pregnant, orphaned like roxie was or in need of medical attention

I do believe future generations will look back to zoo's in cities and think wtf were they thinking. Cities are noisy places you cant get away from that

these animals should not be kept in city zoo's, out of town/cities safari type parks where you may or may not get to see them are a far better option for breeding endangered animals

I have loved seeing animals in zoos but its not right we can't keep fooling ourselves that this is fine as long as we are keeping certain species breeding

??
I don’t know of other countries but, with a son who is a zoologist and involved in UK zoos, you don’t have to get permission to euthanise an animal.
It is carried out by veterinarians who must follow their own best practice for the welfare of animals.
Again I reiterate, animals suffer because of loud foreworks….it’s a fact.

Agree @Keeptherings
of course!!!!! they feel fear, they sense death and they feel pain.

Well said
Why livestock farmers and meat eaters try to justify themselves is beyond me. Own it. There’s nothing happy clappy about killing animals.

That’s a tiny section of the giant panda enclosure. They had big outdoor areas too. They could choose pretty freely where to be.

This. It's absolutely disgusting what people can justify for profit. Poor, poor animals.

As it's an official display, are the fireworks particularly loud? My experience of professionally choreographed displays is that they're often accompanied by music, which obviously needs to be heard. Taronga zoo is at least a mile and a half from the launch site which is going to be a lot different from someone launching rockets from a back garden in the houses which back right onto Edinburgh Zoo.

Quite possibly they do do more damage. I've no idea. But I feel this isn't about that. There's huge debates that could come from this about stuff like who does more harm to planet. I'm not a mad environmentalist so I hope it doesn't come across like that. I simply don't see why the bangs are necessary when they causes so much harm. I think from your thread you agree, drones and light shows would be an ideal solution!

I'm not really a massive MN commenter but someone posted something early on that I felt needed a response and it's spiralled (and I don't believe that person responded to my points so they've either ignored it, or hopefully they've either took stock of what they said)

I understand there's a huge bigger picture that people have brought up.... ie "lots of you can't care about animals if you eat meat", the politics of using the red panda to promote an argument about fireworks, whether the animals injured do more harm than fireworks. It's too complex. The bare bones for me really is, yes lots of people like the fireworks but ultimately the bangs causes a lot of harm to animals and people so why not have best of both worlds and have just silent organised displays?

The noise of a firework indisputably causes considerable distress to an animal. Whether someone likes animals or not, I think you have to question who is comfortable causes such intense distress to another living creature for what is ultimately less than 30 minutes of enjoyment watching lights and bangs when there's an easy solution that suits everyone. We watch the displays for 30 mins , enjoy the lights, prob enjoy a pie and pint and then trot off home and off to bed all forgotten about. For the sake of our 30 mins of fun, some poor animals is utterly distressed. Some dog owner is heartbroken watching their large dog trying to squeeze themself into a tiny spot to cower from noise etc. it's not really justifiable to me.