To be confused why DIL has suddenly changed in how she treats me

[helpamilout]

My son is in his mid-30s and has been with his wife for nearly a decade. They dated for 3-4 years before getting married. When they were dating, she was lovely—chatty, friendly and extremely polite, almost overly so, often saying things like, “Do you mind if I use your bathroom?” or “Thank you very much” for even small gestures.

After they got engaged, everything still seemed fine. But a couple of weeks before the wedding, they told us she was six weeks pregnant, and that’s when things began to change. She became more private and somewhat secretive about the pregnancy (which is of course her right—it was just very different from how she had been before). She was quieter in conversations and didn’t reach out to us as much as she used to. I don’t believe we did anything to cause this; we avoided giving unsolicited advice and tried to be supportive. The only thing I can think of is that I once mentioned C-sections having longer recovery times when she shared she was considering it, but that seems minor.

We also expressed that we were very excited to meet the baby, though we didn’t pressure them with specific timing. We ended up meeting our grandchild when they were one month old, while her mom met the baby in the hospital and her dad when the baby was just three days old. When she was pregnant with their second, they didn’t tell us until she was 20 weeks along, even though it seemed her close friends already knew.

They never ask us to babysit but often ask her parents. They visit her parents once a month, but they only come to see us once or twice a year, despite us living the same distance away (a couple of hours, though in the opposite direction). I do see them a bit more often because I go to visit them, but they never invite me to stay overnight, whereas her mom often stays with them.

It’s perhaps worth noting that my daughter-in-law is a stay-at-home mom, and my son works long hours, sometimes on weekends. While arranging visits should ideally be a joint effort, it often falls on her since my son can’t really insist on her seeing us when he isn’t around. My son does make an effort to plan visits with us when he’s off work, but when I do visit, she seems distant and disengaged. I’ve heard her mention that the drive to us is “far,” yet she drives the same distance to her parents regularly. During visits, she often seems uninterested and sometimes responds quite shortly. For instance, when I asked how long the baby typically naps, she just shrugged and said, “Depends.” And when I brought a homemade banana cake for everyone to share, she laughed and said he doesn’t like bananas anymore.

I’m confused what has caused this. I’ve asked my son but he says everything is fine. Should I ask her? If so, how? Can MNers see what I’ve made done wrong or help me guess?

I have a live in housekeeper, plus a daily cleaner and a driver and I do plenty of housework with 2 children! If you like a tidy and ordered home there is lots to do even with full time help!

Yes! With my own family I can click into the years we’ve had together, lots in common, I don’t have to be “on” for conversation to flow. With my in-laws, we’re very different and it’s effort – my MIL would definitely ask how long the DC nap for or whatever because we have nothing in common, the kids are the common ground, but it’s not very interesting to talk about. And child sleep is such a minefield, those questions often lead to surprise, judgement, unwanted advice. For me, chat about the children is indicative of how little she knows me and how hard work that is; and life with small kids, especially away from home, is already hard work!

Aside from the drive, is your house easy to visit: eg my parents put up a travel cot and high chair before we arrive, buy in the blue milk, have craft materials and enjoy our visits. MIL has an untrained dog with no crate or safety gate, doesn’t put the central heating on, no travel cot so we have to jam pack the car, and doesn’t eat vegetables so we have to arrive with fresh food – it is genuinely harder work. But I wouldn’t want to tell her that as we’re not close, it could be hurtful; DP wouldn’t as they’re not close; so we would blame the journey (which tbf is a day in length).

Could there be something like that at play that puts them off visiting – dogs, unfenced pond, comments on kids’ sleep (I visit my dad less as his new partner is obsessed with asking if they slept through then looking faux-baffled that excited children fed ice cream and staying somewhere novel have woken up), you’re vegan and the kids subsist on mince, etc etc?

You could be describing me! Successful husband who works all hours and travels a lot. Gave up a legal career (that I hated but was v successful at - earning close to half a million per year) and now I’m at home covered in mashed veggies and singing nursery rhymes to my two. I constantly feel like I’m an inadequate mother and my in laws sometimes compound this - my first is a picky eater and quite a sensitive child. My in laws are always commenting on it. I hate it and it makes me not want to see them. My own parents are kindness personified.

Have you ever voiced any regret that your son has to work such long hours presumably for financial reasons as she is a SAHM so only one income coming in? Reading your post there is a lot of mention of him not having much time so maybe subconsciously she feels you are criticising her for not working and enabling him to spend more time at home or with family.

From what you’ve said, she sounds like quite a private, introverted person. The excessive politeness when first meeting you is a sign of someone who’s shy and maybe not very socially comfortable. That sort of shyness can come across as aloofness, and I can see how it could be exacerbated by the stress of a new baby (and all the attendant invasions of privacy that come with that - poking, prodding, doctors seeing things, the sense of your body being shared etc).

Do you think it’s possible that this is nothing to do with any feelings about you specifically, but just increased social withdrawal and need for privacy? That would explain keeping her own parents, who she’s naturally going to be more comfortable around, close.

As others have said, I would just ask her - but broach the subject very gently. Don’t go in with “Why are you treating me differently?” or “don’t you like me?” as that might increase her withdrawal from you.

@Fingerscrossedfor2021HK

Me too!! Although my relationship with my parents is also a bit complicated and my relationship with my PIL is much better than the OP - both GP relationships somewhere in the middle.

It is hard to lose your whole separate identity and sometimes get treated like just a vessel for carrying a grandchild, however much you love your babies. And the external affirmation you get from being successful in work is often more than you get from caring for a small child.

My MIL was very big on the idea that I was spoiling my first child, but she has changed her tune now and is quite complimentary about my mothering. My own parents don't really praise me - it's not their thing and I think there might even be a bit of competition lurking under there. I feel very observed. Now I am older, wiser and wrinklier, I am better able to screen it out, but when you have a small baby or toddler it can be overwhelming.

Hang in there. You are doing a great job.

You don't have to criticise someone to make them feel small, especially if they don't feel confident.

My MIL also made clear, without saying so, that she felt that I was punching above my weight. She would "pitch" all my husband's great characteristics and comment favourably on his looks and then just let it.... hang, just to emphasise how lucky I was pretty much every visit. She never asked me anything about myself. I always presented in a chatty way and let it wash over me, but it did change how I felt about her underneath.

I commented a while back - but you ignored - that the amount of time they are giving to you is AMAZING in the context. One weekend a month, when they only get two full weekends together! They are giving you half of their downtime.

The fact she sees her own mum more than you is irrelevant. You are comparing which is unhealthy, and anyway she might be super close to her Mum. What she does with her time is up to her and you sound petty making comparison.

Why would a knackered SAHM want to host someone in their home! They have paid for a hotel which is great. It's exhausting having to to host people and be "on" all weekend, tidy round, wash bedsheets, keep on top of the bathroom, cook, make drinks, be on best behaviour, make sure kids are behaving, feeling awkward about possible tantrums, picky eating etc, and all the time waiting for the guests to leave so you can get into your lounging clothes and relax together.

You identified the c-section comment, which makes me suspect there are likely loads more comments you have made but you have a lack of self-awareness. You certainly have judged her a lot on this thread (the cleaning remarks, his job, "his" income, the apparent ease of her life, to whom and when she chooses to announce pregnancy etc etc). You frankly don't like her, making digs about your other son saying she's been cold etc, plus sound jealous and petty over the time she chooses to spend with her parents, and also display misogynist attitudes. This is what you must think as you have shared it on here, so it's overwhelmingly likely that this seeps out in your comments, your facial expression and you general attitude.

In the context of all of this you are extremely blessed to get to see them all so often and be included and catered for so much.

You see them on a monthly basis, that is quite normal
You don’t say how young the grandchildren are here but they still sound very young so I can quite see why your DIL would not want to traipse an hour out of London with two tots/nappies/food! Would you?!

@helpamilout How often do you see your other DC and their families? If you have 4 kids then that should keep you occupied each weekend of the month!

You complain you aren’t invited to stay then drip feed you have other DC in London that you do stay with so they probably see that as you having a reasonable place to stay (I would!) I can only speak from my own experience but having your own parents stay is a help as you don’t feel the need to look presentable & can ask them to muck in. With extended family / friends you feel the need to ‘host’ them. You may argue you don’t expect this but it may be how your DIL feels regardless.

You sound judgmental of your DIL & even with a housekeeper of course she has cooking and housework to do still! i know my MIL and SIL used to discuss me & my household set up and my lack of attributes as a ‘wife’ & it made me withdraw from them. MIL has a very old fashioned set up (FIL doesn’t know how to use the washing machine for example) and although you may say nice things on the face of it she may be picking up on underlying judgment.

My MIL was desperate to babysit too. I was breastfeeding so just didn’t need it in the early days. You will probably find they are more receptive to it as the children get older. You’ve put the offer in they’ve said thanks but not needed yet now wait to be asked.

in my case the main reason I don’t want to see more of my PIL is that I have very little in common with them other than a shared interest in their son and our DC. Politically my PIL are Reform/Trump/conspiracy theory types and it’s got worse since they joined social media as they share intolerant and sometimes racist crap. I am by nature a liberal person and I have no common views with them. Even their son doesn’t like the views they appear to now hold. So when we see them it’s fairly superficial. I’m not saying that is the case for you @helpamilout but just an explanation from my own dynamics.

It seems like your son has a very demanding job & your DIL has her hands full. I wouldn’t try & force anything more onto them to meet your own ‘needs’. Enjoy when you do get together otherwise you will find it’s even more strained if you start asking ‘why can’t we see you more?’

I don't get why you're so disappointed about seeing them once a month? It's plenty. I don't think I could stomach seeing my ILs more often, and they are (mostly) lovely people. It's exhausting, in a way that they are strangers that you've been thrown together and are supposed to suddenly play happy families with. But you have no common interests apart from your spouse and eventual children, no common history and nothing to talk about apart from platitudes. You have to host them as guests and are unable to relax in your own home. My MIL also offers to "help" all the time, but she does things so differently that it stresses me out and I end up doing it all again after she's left.

There's nothing personal about it, but I can think of many things I would rather be doing with my weekends that don't involve spending them with my MIL, putting on a pleasant face for her and feeling bored with the forced polite conversation. And I can never relax with her like I would with my own family, I cannot argue with her like I do with them. We tell each other what we think because it's safe, I know that we'll still love each other after an argument. I just don't have the same safe relationship with my MIL.

Also, I can understand her not "letting" your DS take her kids away to stay at yours, it seems like he's not very hands on with them due to being away a lot and she wouldn't be able to relax and not worry.

In short: you need a life and maybe a hobby or two.

I don’t want to put words in ops mouth but I’m not sure if it’s the frequency alone that is the problem, it’s the way she is treated when she does see them.

@GelatinousDynamo Today 12:03

I don't get why you're so disappointed about seeing them once a month? It's plenty. I don't think I could stomach seeing my ILs more often, and they are (mostly) lovely people. It's exhausting, in a way that they are strangers that you've been thrown together and are supposed to suddenly play happy families with.

This is it, tbh. I'm the same.
I've quoted Gelatinous but lots of us have said it.

I don't feel OP has responded to this basic message.

I wonder if the coolness is because of OPs tunnel vision at the moment. ''I want more''. ''I want things to be different''. ''This is not enough''.

Our feelings come out in micro mannerisms and little things we say. Subconsciously (and sometimes not).

Now the big idea that there's an ISSUE. You (and the rest of the family who you've asked) are probably unaware of what the BIG ISSUE is because ... there isn't one!

It might ironically simply be that this persuit of 'what the issue is' IS the very thing straining the fragile relationship between you and DIL OP.

It's a perfect storm. Yes - she's pissed off about something by the sound of it but it might be that she's just sick of the vibes from the word go that your once a month visit isn't enough and the asking about staying over and asking to do the kids laundry and bring it back and the interest in how she's spending her time (how often she's been to her mum's lately )(i bet you do, be honest) is getting on her tits.

Throw in that she's probably picking up subtle clues about everything you have thoughts about.
Once a month is not enough.
She has a housekeeper .... she doesn't like house work.
Your son works hard while she's a SAHP
She happily drives the long journey to her parents but isn't thrilled about doing the long drives you suggest.
You want to stay over in their house but they're making up excuses.
You're eager to baby sit the kids but haven't yet.
You want to come over during the week.
You bring food and she isn't enthusiastic.
You're jealous about her seeing her parents more than your son sees you.
You think there's an issue (!) and feel like having it out with her.

It's a long list.
If i only sensed half of it i'd have my hackles up.

Dil has someone cooking and cleaning for her. How can it be hard to have your Mil who seems really nice over so that her children can get to know their paternal grandmother? OP even wants to watch the children so DIL could get all rest she wants. I do think she's being selfish.

'Get to know the paternal grandmother' ?

She's over for a day or a weekend once a month!

My youngest sees her paternal grand parents apx 5/6 per year. They are 2 hours away like OP.

DD 'knows' them just fine! ''It's nan and grand dad! Yay!'' Runs into their house or runs to greet them at our door <Big hugs> She's 10 now. She looks forward to seeing them. They have fun when they see each other ... ?

I ran into a girl I used to teach. At school she disclosed emotional and physical abuse from her parents. They were very traditional, strict and unbending. In the end she stayed with them and did not move into foster care. She is now married with a child. She told me that her parents do a lot of childcare for her child. I just nodded and smiled but she blurted out that it was what she knew, she grew up with it and so she allowed them to look after her child.
There are lots of women on MN who put up with abusive parents because it is what they are familiar with. It is very common
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_violence
In my experience women put up with a lot a of unacceptable behaviors from their own parents. They will not put up with the slightest suggestion of anything from inlaws.
A lot of women, particularly SAHMs, use their own mothers for emotional support. I see so many mothers at toddler groups with their own mums in tow.
The husbands are there to earn money. They have very little say in many matters to do with the home.
I do think though that women who deliberately cut off their husbands from emotional involvement with their families, can be the ones whose husbands walk out on them. Or whose husbands remarry quickly when they are bereaved. They are trained not to be emotionally attached.
I really hope that is changing.

Although none of this would explain the 'son preference' you find in so much of Asia where it has always been the son's job to look after his parents and not the role of any daughters

Different cultures raising their children differently instilling the expectations and their values from birth means different outcomes.

In Asian families it is often expected that the children will cover their parents retirements essentially paying them back for raising them. A daughter would go off and marry and then become part of his family to care for his parents. So a daughter is more disposable and less use and is raised to know she will leave the family and join his family.

In England there is not the expectation to essentially pay your parents back for having you. Sons are not required to therefore cover their parents expenses so basically go off and just support their new home. Daughters stay close to their mothers because they are not expected to become the in-laws extra help rather she gets to just stay being her own person.

Is something missing in the story about not seeing the baby until they were a month old?

It seems like you were excited and ready to.visit when they were ready for you to come but after a week, did you not bring it up with your son? What did he say at that point? Because while I wanted my mum asap after I gave birth, and didn't feel comfortable with my ILs visiting, I wouldn't have stopped my husband having them come to meet their grandchild. It just seems odd as your telling of the story seems to be that you waited to be invited without ever questioning?

Assuming nothing went horrifically wrong during the birth and that the in-laws aren't total monsters, I'm pretty sure a new mum can find an hour or so during the first couple of weeks where the grandparents can meet the baby!

I wasn't especially close to my in-laws but I remember the joy on my fils face when he came to the hospital the afternoon following the birth of DS and saw him for the first time. I'm glad he had that tbh, especially as he died a couple of years after. It's mean to deny this to GPs - the new baby is part of their family too.

Across Asia and Africa our cultural practices are built on the central concept of children marrying children. So often mils would lose a dd and gain a dil in the same ceremony (joint marriages, so called low dowry marriages where the male / female siblings married male / female siblings and each female was treated as well as their sil was treated).

Sometimes that resulted in super close relationships - eg my maternal grandmother in Nigeria married at 9 to my grandfather who was 10. Her mil’s 11 year old daughter had just married and she missed her and so poured all of that love in my gran. Love the other dils didn’t receive as they married into the family as adults.

Sometimes it resulted in abuse. Eg my other grandmother married into the family at 16 but her mil was so her eldest sil performed that role. The lady hated her, used to hit her and blame her for things, tried to drown my aunt when she was a baby then pretended it was an accident, and the following year when her son married she treated her similarly aged dil like gold dust to scapegoat my grandmother.

But in every case dils viewed their mils as their dms, their carers, and helpers.

Europe on the other hand had a culture of girls marrying grown men and for a long time (before colonisation) lower life expectancies than Asian countries. The mils were often old or dead and couldn’t help while DMs were younger and so could if they wanted to.

@ABirdsEyeView Did you organise your in law's visit your newborn?

I remember texting one friend to organise her visit in 2nd or 3rd week, but everyone else who visited in the first month went through DH to arrange.
I agree with @CocoPlum , the few details we've heard about that time seem patchy.
And consistent with DiL being blamed for what is actually DS's decision.

“A new mum can find an hour or so.” This implies it was all DIL’s decision to delay the baby meeting her MIL; it could have been a mutual choice or OP could have been hanging back waiting for direction.

My parents met my babies on day one. I left DP to arrange things with his parents, they were welcome to show up; he has a difficult relationship with them and it ended up they visited after a month. Nothing to do with me.

I think that most of the time it is the new mum who decides. She's just given birth and I'd bet good money that any husband who said he was inviting his parents round, regardless of whether she wanted them there, would be called a bullying, controlling arse on here!
@LilyBartsHatShop I was in hospital when fil visited and it was back in the day before mobile phones so it would have gone through dh. But I was feeling okay and was happy to have him visit. Had I been feeling really ill I'd have delayed visits a bit but not for a month.
My mil was on a work trip but saw the baby within a week.
My own mum was with me during the birth and my dad brought my little siblings to see the baby when he was a couple of hours old, so I would have felt like a right cow saying no to in-laws.

Obviously if their own son has a fractious relationship, things might be less straightforward. But the OPs DS seems to want to see her and OP says it was dil's choice not to tell her about the 2nd pg until 20 weeks. So I think it's more likely the decisions came from dil.
I do feel like a bit of a hypocrite on this thread because I preferred my own parents, saw them far more. There were good reasons why I didn't want my pil to babysit and I did have them visit even when dh was at work , but I do get how dil feels.
I just think that ultimately you do just have to be a bit fair, even if you don't really want to be.

On the one hand many women want men to be equally involved in childcare and to pull their weight. They want their men to be emotionally available. However, there are women who still do their best to be gatekeepers for their children and no one is allowed near them without their say so. Times are changing. There us now an expectation that after divorce or separation, Dads will have the children 50% if the time. Twenty years ago that was very rare. There is increasing pressure from the State that men take responsibility for their children.
I have some friends who see grandchildren regularly now that their son and wife have separated. They do lots of school pick ups and babysitting.
I think making life difficult for a Dad who is the sole financial provider for his family and has far less time with his children and also to see his parents, is cruel and alienating.
Men who are trained by their wives to let go of emotional attachments to their birth family are going to be the ones who walk out on their wives and partners.
It is short sighted of women to put barriers to cut off in laws. One never knows what is round the corner and women who claim that it is 'biology' to exclude in laws in favour of their own parents are conveniently forgetting that most of the world has traditionally favoured the male line. It is not inevitable for a woman to exclude her husband's family but mean spirited and shortsighted.