To think I can’t control my child

[abangintoon]

I know I’m going to get pasted but I’m kind of hoping there might be some sympathy amongst the inevitable flaming.

He’s four. If I ask / tell him not to do something and generally he ignores me and carries on.

I have read the books and researched this and have tried

telling him what to do rather than what not to do - doesn’t work, still ignores you and carries on doing his own thing
a sanction or consequence, either doesn’t care or throws a tantrum but it doesn’t change his behaviour at all.
speaking firmly, speaking sternly, shouting - doesn’t care. Sometimes laughs.
Giving choices - doesn’t work, just says no to both if it’s something he doesn’t want to do or just ignores you.

I am sure there are more.

I know it can be a difficult age. I am not really posting for advice but more to ask if anyone else just accepted they had no power at all and sort of got on with their day. Fine at preschool by the way.

How is he if his dad tells him?

This.

The same. So no idea what ‘this’ means in this context!

If he’s fine at preschool then he’s willing and able to listen in at least that environment so he’s not uncontrollable.

Means the comment above.

How's his speech?

What are the sanctions or consequences?

No pasting from me. You sound wrung out and desperate for help.
If he is behaving at pre school, he js not a bad child. He is capable of good behavior but is identifying that he can get away with defiance and naughty behavior at home as that is his safe place. Lots of children go through this.
Keep firm, keep up with praise and consequences. No screens, plenty of good rest and routine.

You're ok. You're right it's a difficult age.

If he can't play with a thing safely then he can't have that thing. It's ok for him to have a tantrum about it but he still can't have the thing.

Likewise for any other situation where his actions are causing damage, distress or reduced safety for anyone. He has to be therefore removed from (or prevented from joining) those situations. But otherwise, let him crack on. "Control" isn't the aim - you need to keep (a) him (b) all other people including you and (c) property, safe and undamaged but that can be achieved by removing opportunities rather than controlling behaviour.

The key is to be ok with the tantrums. Yes he has some really big feelings to express and that's ok. But his shouting never ever turns your "no" into a "yes", otherwise he learns that he can control you by shouting enough.

You need to let him throw the tantrum, so like he keeps throwing something around in the living room so you warn him to stop throwing it or it will be taken away. He then throws it again, you then immediately take the thing away, he throws a tantrum, he is still learning in that moment that you mean what you say and that if he doesn't stop then he loses the thing he wants to play with.

Sometimes school can be very different because children are a bit more unsure there, they're watching other children doing things and naturally want to join in and it's much more structured and some children will feel a bit on edge/ concentrating really hard etc and they drop that when they come home. When they come home they have the safety, flexibility and space to express and process their emotions in a different way.

I'd always check for the tired/ hungry/ thirsty/ needy cues first to make sure you're ruling those out because I know ds will be harder to manage when any of that is going on and it's not always super clear. Maybe keep a little journal for a bit in your phone to see if there is any pattern to when he's more defiant to see if you can see a link with lack of routine at the weekend, or coming home or getting ready to go out for school etc etc. There might not be any link but it might be worth a try?

Sometimes I feel like I can get caught into saying no a lot and I need to remember to try and set ds up for success sometimes to create excuses for positive reinforcement and sometimes you're right in that we need to pick our battles. I also find saying to ds "can you help mummy do x" (tidy up/ get his coat on etc etc) gets a better reaction than anything else... though sometimes it's still just a flat no!

I think the problem is the tantrum doesn’t change anything. I am hoping very much it is a phase as at the moment I am a bit worried about the primary school years and secondary school years if I can’t control him at 4.

At 4 my ds was the same. I'd ask him to stop kicking the chair, he'd say no, I'd ask him again more forcefully, he'd ignore me.

Then I'd pick him up and physically remove him from the chair. sit him on the sofa with me, ignore his wriggling, moaning, kicking etc.

If he was playing with the tv remote, I'd ask nicely once. Then be stern once, then remove the remote and put it out of reach.

If he wouldn't put on his clothes ready for school, again, ask nicely once, then ask forcefully then if he still refused, pick him up in his PJs, put him in the car and drive to school where he had the choice of going into class in his pjs in front of his class mates or getting dressed in the car.

He soon learned I don't have time for messing around. On weekdays I meant what I said, no negotiation. You just don't take that nonsense.

Larking around is fine at the weekends though.

See DS wouldn’t care about any of that, so it does render me a bit powerless.

^this is also good advice. When ds throws a tantrum I will let him squeal it out and I hold firm until I feel he got enough out of his system. Then I'll say you're sad and angry because you can't play with x any more. That can be hard would you like a hug. And that usually will bring him back round from the tantrum, he'll learn the language for naming his feelings and he still feels supported, but I've held the boundary and he's not got the toy back.

Pick him up and make him move/ take him to the thing where practical? He does need to understand that you are in charge. I'm not for punitive discipline at all but kids don't really want to be in charge, deep down, it makes them unsettled.

My kid can be very very oppositional and needs to think things were his own idea so I there are some things I have let slide that I didn't think I would, but some are non-negotiable and he will just be forced to do them.

I don't think a difficult four year old means he will always be difficult. They are discovering their power at that age but it's hard to reason with them. I had a much easier 5 than 4 year old.

I think at this sort of age it feels like you're shouting into the wind, but if you do it enough (and tell them no they can't throw toys in the living room 50,000 times) it does eventually stick.

So no, your efforts may not change his behaviour today or tomorrow, but hopefully you're building good foundations in terms of expectations for his behaviour when he's older.

Mine are pretty well behaved at home and angelic at school/nursery but they have had plenty of stages of pushing boundaries. You just sort of have to put up with it and keep trying and self medicate with wine and chocolate after bedtime.

Has his hearing been checked? Does he understand instructions? Could you withdraw things he likes?

He doesn’t really care about missing things he likes. I’m not totally sure how much he understands to be honest either.

Thanks @BarbaraHoward I hope this is the case.

It isn’t always possible to physically stop him doing something and also if you do it sort of feeds the drama which he enjoys.

Have you tried smacking him?

I have a nearly 4 year old (at the end of the month), he also doesn’t listen or does the opposite to what I ask. I think he thinks it’s a game sometimes as he just laughs when I get cross with him. Probably not
in a parenting handbook but he does
respond to the threat of losing an activity he wants to do, so i usually just have to say I’m going to count to 3, if I get to 3 and you’re not doing what I’ve asked then we’re not going to soft play (or whatever it is we were doing). I had to follow through the first couple of times but now i rarely get to 3. He’s also an absolute angel at nursery and they always tell me what a pleasure he is to have in the class (cue the eye roll from me 🙄🙈😂). I have told nursery what he’s like at home to see if they had advice and they’ve done work around listening ears, etc with him but that made no difference either.

🍿

^^ this.

I did exactly this type of thing with my kids. I don’t put up with any shit and they know it. If you’re consistent and don’t let him get away with it, he will eventually realise he can’t run rings around you. Short term pain for long term gain.

I also don’t believe in any of this gentle parenting nonsense. They’re the kids and I’m the parent. They’re 9&10 now and they know that no means no, we get moments but we stand our ground and they do listen.

I don’t even think it makes any difference. He has this thing where he has to walk on things so if a coat or scarf or something falls off the back of a chair he has to stand on it. At the park the other day he walked across a kids painting, kid was not impressed and it got physical. I did intervene obviously. But it didn’t stop him trying to walk across bags coats etc.

I don't have any answers for you, but just wanted to say this was my experience too with all 3 of mine. 3 are diagnosed with ADHD and two with autism, and I'm not saying this is the case for you, but it is estimated 20% of children have either and that number is rising rapidly. If this is the case, then I don't know if it is some comfort that nearly a quarter of other parents experience the same. Well meaning advice is hard to hear, as it simply doesn't work with kids who enjoy the dopamine from arguing as much as doing the thing you don't want them to do. You need to pick your battles. I was super strict and consistent with my first and it didn't make any difference to how quickly they learnt, it just made it harder for both of us. Distraction is your biggest tool for highly defiant children. Bribery is just a form of distraction, don't be afraid to use it.