We need to start asking why.

[NotOneOfTheInCrowd]

So trump has won. In the UK elections reform gained good ground. In the rest of Europe the far right are gaining ground.

It’s clear that the world as a whole is leaning further towards this stance, and instead of expressing horror and insulting those who are voting that way, we need to start asking why that is. Because clearly it is.

it’s easy to say that people voted for Farage because they didn’t want to vote Tory.

Or that they voted for Trump because they didn’t want a woman.

But it has to go further than that. There are too many of these votes for it to be that simplistic. so it’s time we looked at what the realities and the reasons are, and how they can be resolved without putting it in the hands of people like Farage or Trump to resolve them.

Its creating an echo chambers, calling everyone else stupid and lack of genuine debate. I hardly engage on Mumsnet , as its pointless...

Hey! This explains my post so eloquently. People who can’t be arsed to discuss/debate, and just resort to lazy name calling instead….They never learn do they??

The left just appear to go round telling people that they are fucking cunts for voting right.

Whether they are correct or not people don't react well to this and are unlikely to be swayed.

even in victory here people keen to decrepit the left in a very negative light , as being smug and superiors and looking down on others

Come on - pot calling kettle ?

I think there's a lot of truth in this. Although I think they're quite misguided as to who is the real threat to their resources.

I only see people calling out lazy name calling like racist and stupid. I haven’t seen anything go the other way.

It was a mistake for Brown to say it, but she was, in fact, a bigot.

Yeah, well you know what? I live in an area where an entire generation of young people are unable to buy a home where they grew up. Because of second homes. Not a bunch of imaginary evil immigrants, but because of wealthy mostly British mostly white people destroying their communities and culture. So excuse me if I don't give a shit about the poor wickle second home owners having to pay a tiny bit more tax.

And while my own SEN child is attending a state school- and being poor I don't have a hope in hell of him ever going private- I don't give much of a shit about the wealthy having to pay VAT on their private schools to fund everyone else's education either. 🎻

Wanting to talk about immigration doesn't make a person a bigot. You see, this is the issue, isn't it? Wanting to express a concern, makes her a bigot. So we don't discuss issues and we end up with people voting for parties that won't meet your approval.
BTW Blair and Brown are examples of not understanding how working class people do things. When they agreed that people from the A8 countries could freely come to the UK and immediately access all services, they thought the vast majority would be middle class professionals. They didn't expect goodness knows how many to be unskilled, or low skilled, with no functioning English. They couldn't comprehend that many saw it as an opportunity when they had little to offer. And many places found huge numbers who needed to be housed by local authorities, and who were claiming benefits rather than being self sufficient. Neither did they think that many were actually criminals who saw the chance to get away.
Before you tell me I'm talking rubbish, I dealt with many who were just that.
Low skills, no English comprehension, and in many cases with a criminal record.
It's not being a bigot to accept that mistakes were made and those mistakes were detrimental to those already in the UK.
Edited to say, the projection was 15, 000 would come from the A8 countries. Over 1 million actually came. Only 3 countries allowed freedom of movement, the UK, Sweden and Ireland.

Entirely agree.

A lot of people struggle financially now.
Even people on good salaries.

When human beings struggle financially, they're not welcoming to outsiders/immigrants as they feel they have to compete more for already limited resources.

I live on a vast council estate that would be described as disadvantaged and it seems that as soon as a flat becomes empty an immigrant family is allocated it. I am now the only English speaker and person working in both my block and the one next door - each block containing 4 flats. That means 7 flats in the last 18 months have been given to non-working, non English speaking people. Except for 1 flat, I have only met the male occupiers as their wives stay inside with the curtains drawn. Whether anyone likes it or not, this is going to be divisive. Unless you happen to live in a disadvantaged area and find that your neighbours are rapidly becoming non working, non English speakers, I don't think you can possibly criticise those who feel concerned.

Absolutely this

Plus the current trend for the populist right wing to promise the moon on a stick and then darvo when it doesn't appear (we would have made you richer if it wasn't for the EU/immigrants/human rights lawyers etc etc).

The left seems caught in a bind of just about having enough integrity not to lie outright about what they can deliver, which tends to look crap and depressing compared to said moon-on-stick.

Comforting, simple lies are much easier to sell than complex and difficult truths.

*Edited because I wrote pies not lies. I think my vote could definitely be bought for a comforting pie today.

It's because we have an economic system in the west that needs constant growth, profit margins need to get bigger each year, "productivity" needs to constantly increase. This has allowed large multinational companies to accumulate more and more wealth whilst the people at the bottom have to work longer and longer with less wealth to keep the system going, alongside our low fertility rates (the economic system is a large contributory factor to the low fertility rates) the only way this can keep on going is by having large amounts of immigration.
If the economic system breaks down, then no more pensions, public services etc,
Labour/democrats are trying to keep the system going for as long as they can because they don't want to stand up to the large multinationals, so they just get us into more and more debt allowing the disparity between the rich and the poor to get bigger and bigger.
Reform/Trump just lie to the public by saying they that they will get rid of immigration, make everyone wealthy etc which they can't as they would have to change the whole system, which their very wealthy backers (Elon mush etc) won't allow them do to
The only way out of this mess is a globalised approach to put in place an economic system that is more balanced for everyone, but that will require a huge political consensus and brave/intelligent politicians which we don't have.

This is stupid to me and I am a financially struggling single parent. Immigrants aren't taking anything from me.

People are sick of the uncontrolled mass immigration?

The progressive left weren’t running the NHS in those days.

An indirect consequence of mass migration is "white flight" which knocks onto house prices. But also it has always been the case that when humans struggle they look after "their own" and to do so they turn on "outsiders".

Overpopulation, overconsumption of everything including information, and a fight over resources.

I agree, but I just think this is the reason for a lot of the animosity.

But an extra 1 million people have to live somewhere. They need a roof over their heads, we didn't just have extra homes doing nothing. Neither were there empty classrooms waiting for their children. Or accredited interpreters to assist when those people needed to access public services. Do you know how much an interpreter costs? And relying on a friend of the customer causes all sorts of issues, including the fact that there is no legal redress if they don't actually interpret, but add their own take on the situation.
So, yes, it does cause issues,not least the stress on budgets.

Running/funding are not the same as those who dictate the professional culture.

And you highlight the problems with the discussion:

”poor wickle second home owners”
”don’t give a shit about the wealthy having to pay VAT”
Tiny violin emoji

you have completely dismissed problems experienced by others - so why on earth would you expect them to give a shit about anything impacting you?

"Woke" is dead and dying. The Left don't like that, so anyone who is speaks up questioning the new doctrines is shouted down. Then after they have finished the shouting and denigration, they remove their hearing aids and go la la la la.

I'm partially deaf myself and use aids, but that's the result of illness not ignorance, intolerance and superiority.

I always knew it.

America would rather have anyone in the White House than a woman. And a black woman to boot.