Would you make space for a family with a disabled child on a train?

[UnbeatenMum]

AIBU to think that most people would see a disability pushchair with a child who is around 6-7 and realise the child is disabled? So if they don't make space for you on a train it's not because they haven't realised? We travelled on several trains during half term and our experience was quite mixed. Ended up with his pushchair half blocking the aisle on two occasions because no one moved for us (in the wheelchair section, all non-wheelchair users or their suitcases or baggage taking up the space). My son was fine but I had to sit on the floor and then get him off the train without help because the rest of the family had walked up the train to find seats. AIBU or would I have had a better experience if he had a wheelchair? I should say a couple of people did offer us a seat but overall it wasn't great.

If im perfectly honest i dont think i would clock its a disability pushchair especially if there wasn't a child actually sat in it and they had walked on and off the train holding a hand, as at face value it's a similar level of need to lots of young children who tire walking long distances.
If people are distracted mulling over something stressful at work, listening to music etc in this situation they just aren't going to notice especially if the pushchair is empty.

i definitely think you are right OP and it’s because people didn’t realise. It’s a completely different situation but when I was pregnant but people would leap up on the tube when I wore my ‘baby on board’ badge but I would often have to ask for a seat if I forgot to wear it (and people were invariably lovely when I did ask).

on not knowing who is disabled, I would never target an individual for their seat but you can just say to the world in general “sorry, is there someone who would mind giving up their seat for my son”

You can also get a “please offer me a seat” badge from TFL though I don’t know if they would send it out of London.

I would have given up my seat/space for you, but having been in your position I probably do notice more than others. My DSis is in a wheelchair now, but as a child was in the larger buggies for some time. It did get to a point where it was so much bigger than a normal buggy, and she behaved like a 6 month old, even though she was big, so it was really obvious, but unfortunately some people just see a large child in a buggy and assume you're just a lazy parent who can't be bothered to make their children walk!

My DM wouldn't have had any qualms about asking people to move (she always has been a bit outspoken!), so do try and get a few token phrases to hand (if you don't ask for assistance):

"Excuse me, I need to use the wheelchair space please"

You may come across some arseholes that will demand some sort of medical proof before giving up their precious space, so come up with a phrase that will embarrass them and make them move:

Loudly: "You really want to know the details of the disability that has left my child in a wheelchair??"

Don't call it a pushchair

"At what age does a pushchair become a wheelchair, because he's going to be in this for life."

I was on the tube once when a man got on with his toddler in a pushchair. He put the chair in the space it was supposed to go and it was facing some seats where people were sat. The little boy made eye contact with the man in front of him, pointed and said "Daddy seat" 😂 The Dad was mortified and was trying to say "no, honestly, it's fine", but the guy just apologised to the kid, laughed, stood up and let dad sit down, much to the amusement of everyone else around them!

Yes, I agree. We had these too

I would expect the wheelchair space to be cleared for someone in a wheelchair, and I'd certainly do that if I had luggage there or was standing there. I think a wheelchair would be more obvious than a disabled pushchair.

I wouldn't expect someone to give up their seat for the family of a disabled child, unless the accompanying family members were disabled themselves. I would actually presume that the parent of a disabled child would want to be standing next to the wheelchair/disabled pushchair, and it wouldn't occur to me to treat other members of the family apart from the main carer any differently to any other passenger.

The important thing to me would be that the disabled person could use the disabled space.

I'd absolutely move for anyone requiring a seat more than me, for whatever reason that may be. However not sure why you needed a seat?

As an aside, I suffer horrendous motion sickness when I'm stood on trains, I feel so much better sitting down. But I can never bring myself to ask anyone if they'd mind if i sat down, so I suffer in silence

Sorry should have added, I wouldn't have made space for the whole family, no

To be honest when I'm on my commute I tend to be listening to music and in my own world so it's entirely possible I'd just see 'pushchair' and carry on with my day. But I would always, 100% move if asked in this scenario. I am guessing people often just don't notice (as well as yes, people being inherently selfish and horrible sometimes)

if you're in the first carriage, with the engine and the "catering area" where they store the food/trolleys there is a wheelchair space when you get on, but the large luggage rack is in the next carriage. I usually book that carriage because it means you don't have so far to walk at St Pancras (I usually have a massive case because i then go on the Eurostar)

I've had this argument with them many times, when the available luggage rack (that i can't see) is full anyway (because full carriage) and they want me to put my case in the wheelchair space or - laughably once - on the overhead rack.

in that case we managed to wedge it on an empty seat (me being me and another passanger) that had been booked but wasn't being used.

It is inexcusable, they know the problem but they don't want to fix it.

To clarify for posters who are not sure:

Pretty much all trains in the U.K. have a designated area for wheelchairs. This is indicated on the outside of the train by a blue wheelchair sign so that people in wheelchairs can get on at the correct section.

Not all carriages have this, on most trains there will be at least two or more spaces but all trains have at least one section on the train.

In this section there is usually space for two wheelchairs (one in each side) and sometimes some pull down seats. The seats that face the wheelchair section are usually marked as priority seats that should be given up for someone disabled or less able to stand.

On trains where seats can be reserved these spaces are considered "seats" and can also be reserved. On trains where you can't reserve seats you can't reserve the place.

These spaces are usually filled with luggage and baby buggies. If you get on with a wheelchair then either you have to ask people to move (very very few people move of their own accord) their buggy/luggage or you book passenger assistance who will do it for you.

Some people with families view these as ideal seats for them as you can park the pushchair/buggy and then sit in the seats next to it. Some of them can be very difficult about moving.

To the OP - sounds like people made space for your child. They wouldn't (and I wouldn't expect them to) make space for you to sit down as well.

Honestly... yes people probably didn't realise it was a wheelchair rather than a pushchair.

But switching to a wheelchair you're unlikely to get much more joy, other people on the whole couldn't give a fuck as they were there first, and your presence is going to inconvenience them.

That is even if they look up from their 'traveller trance' and notice you exist.

It's also not really appropriate to fill the whole accessible space with non-disabled family so if you go for a chair that can't be folded, rather than fold chair, sit in normal seating, you are going to have to split the family up to travel on trains. There really isn't a way around that as the accessible spaces do not take into account the concept of disabled people having friends (particularly, disabled friends!) or family!

I've had people rest their bike against my wheelchair (so it constantly bumped and joggled me), occupy the flap down seat so I had to sit in the aisle (they were shifted by the ticket collector)...

And then there was the day that, as I got on the train, someone dumped a couple of large bags in the wheelchair area. I said 'Excuse me, I need to get into that spot' and got a very unpleasant sneery response:

'Well I was here first... what are YOU going to do about it'.. as he strode off down the train.

I shouted that I'd move them, and he just muttered 'yeah right' as he vanished.

So I did. Was quite a simple matter of hauling them from in front of me, and then out the door back onto the platform.

Long story short, he wasn't very amused at finding his stuff still in X when he reached Y. Fortunately for me, the other people in the carriage were on my side and a member of staff had turned up just at the right moment, or I think I was going to get thumped.

pre having kids, I knew absolutely sweet fa about children and their needs so I doubt I would have spotted it was a disabled child in a pushchair and most people glance up for like 1 second, especially in a packed carriage and probably wouldn't have clocked it either. I think the badge is a good idea!

YANBU I experienced both with DS. I'm sure they just see a bigger buggy and think lazy parent and child. But there was a mum with a LB wheelchair user. The spaces were occupied by adult WU. Only space to fold wheelchair so had to carry him down the carriage. Very different with adult DD. She has disabilities not physical but was temporarily in a wheelchair. People did move and allow us to board buses first. Never had to fight for space with a pram.

This is going to sound harsh, but why do you deserve a seat over someone else? Your ds was seated in his chair. You’re criticising others but they didn’t watch him struggling to stand and ignore, they just didn’t move for his able bodied carer. You have no idea what’s going on in their lives but you’re willing to judge them and assume they’re selfish. Dd3 has a disability but I wouldn’t assume I’d get treated differently because of it in terms of seating.

people not helping you off with the pushchair surprises me as I’ve witnessed multiple parents being helped on and off trains. That sucks. I carried a lady’s pushchair up a flight of steps at the underground recently and have seen many people (usually men) do the same, so I’m sorry that didn’t happen for you.

Travel assist is the way to go. Plus it's against the rules of travel not to give up your seat for a disabled person. The guard can ask any passenger for proof. I travel GWR and they are fab. I'm disabled and walk with aids.

You don’t need a seat though. The other person might have been on their feet all day too.

Your son though should absolutely be given priority. I’d look at getting your daughter a lanyard so people are aware and may offer a seat

You could have helped the woman! It's 2024, why your husband?

YANBU but I would recommend booking assistance in the future to avoid issues.

I regularly take a route between London and a major tourist city just over an hour away. The route is used by commuters to London and local travellers taking short journeys, as well as tourists (lots of tourists…). There is absolutely no luggage storage except for the overhead shelf and between the seats but you can’t fit anything larger than a small hand baggage size case in/on them. In fact, the aisle is so narrow, it’s almost impossible to carry even a small case along it. So all the huge suitcases belonging to the tourists get piled up in the wheelchair space if it hasn’t already been booked for a bike. HTF that works if a wheelchair user needs the space and it has already been booked by a bike, I have no idea 🤷‍♀️

If I recognised it as a disability pushchair I would move; I might not recognise it as I don't have children of my own so I am not really tuned into the different styles of pushchair.

Sure, but there were lots of seats in other carriages that we couldn't get to but someone able bodied could have, I wasn't thinking anyone should stand for me. But that would have been above and beyond, not expected. I do have a lanyard for my daughter but we didn't have it with us, I will definitely bring it next time and get one for my son as well.

I didn't want anyone to give me a seat and stand themselves, that's not what I'm saying at all. It's the not moving for the disability pushchair that's the issue. On two journeys I couldn't fit the pushchair into the wheelchair area or only got it part way in because people or their luggage were taking up the space and it was literally in the aisle, on one occasion it was taking up about 80% of the aisle and people had to keep squeezing past. A woman was sitting on a fold down seat where the wheelchairs are supposed to go and didn't move.

People can be dicks on trains. I remember a full carriage when I was on crutches once and nobody offered me a seat. I almost fell over.

If that’s the case then you need to speak up and request that people move.

I recently took a 2 hour train from London to Hastings and two women were sitting in the wheelchair user space with their luggage. I asked them to move and they did. Simple really. Don’t expect people to do things and just use your voice