imane khelif has been allegedly confirmed to be a man.

[Cartwrightandson]

A leaked French medical report from 2023 has confirmed that Algerian boxer Imane Khelif is male.

Top endocrinologists found that Khelif has XY chromosomes, no uterus, internal testicles, and a "micropenis."

The report was drafted in June of 2023 via a collaboration between the Kremlin-Bicêtre hospital in Paris, France, and the Mohamed Lamine Debaghine hospital in Algiers, Algeria. Drafted by expert endocrinologists Soumaya Fedala and Jacques Young, the report reveals that Khelif is impacted by 5-alpha reductase deficiency, a disorder of sexual development that is only found in biological males.

reduxx.info/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-has-xy-chromosomes-and-testicles-french-algerian-medical-report-admits/

" I think it’s fair to say that she shouldn’t be allowed to compete with women based on her karyotype"

Do you think that Khelif is male or female based on the information that you have read?

ie. Do you think that Khelif has a body formed around the production of large gametes, even if those will never be produced? Or do you think that Khelif has a body formed around the production of small gametes whether those are produced or not?

Stripping away 'woman' or 'man' because in actual fact, it is irrelevant whether Khelif identifies themselves as being a woman or a man in this instance.

Serena Williams has a female body structure- softer face, not masculine.

https://images.app.goo.gl/BEFk9SaDBVKDdwob6

I expect there are a number of men with DSD who don’t want their personal biology displayed for the world to comment on.

They probably deal with it by not putting themselves in a public arena like the Olympics, or indeed any sporting event , by not pretending to be a female athlete, by not lying about being a woman, and by not denying that previous tests have shown chromosomal abnormalities which make it clear you are not a woman and hoping nobody notices.

If you want a private life it is perfectly possible to have one , by staying private.

The IOC knew the exact nature of Khelif's genetic condition. They just decided that a passport that says "female" (presumably because of ambiguous external genitalia at birth) overrides everything else. "Everything else" being "male in every measurable way except for external presentation of genitals.

I never hear how unfair it is that 7' 6" basketball players have an unfair advantage over 5' 10", regardless of the sex of either.

This is known as the 'Phelps Gambit'. But... hey... maybe the poster who posted this knows more than sports scientists and developmental biologists....

maybe.... or maybe they should just understand not to recycle fallacy arguments from the internet.

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE / PHELPS GAMBIT / PHELPS ARGUMENT

Here is a good explanation. It has links to relevant information embedded so it is best to see it on twitter.

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1374331296143581186

But here is some of it:

Phelps' wingspan:height ratio is 1.04. It's straightforward to find other males with the same ratio who are slower than Phelps in some strokes, but who are faster in others. e.g. Matt Grevers. Ratio 1.04, slower freestyle than Phelps, faster backstroker than Phelps. Interestingly, despite the same wingspan:height ratio, he's, in absolute numbers, generally bigger than Phelps.

What you never find is a female with the same wingspan:height ratio who is there or thereabouts compared with Phelps. Missy Franklin has a ratio of 1.03, yet is over 10% slower than Phelps.

It's almost like wingspan:height ratio isn't discriminatory in the pool. Even absolute wingspan or absolute height isn't discriminatory.

And there's a very simple reason. When you select, on national or international levels, for athletes that are good in a particular discipline, you will tend to pull through an entire group who all share the general advantage (in this case, swimmers are tall with long arms). Phelps, with height (not the tallest) and wingspan (not the widest, nor the biggest ratio) is, for sure, built to be a better swimmer than almost every other person in the world. But his body shape is not particularly extraordinary within that group of competitive swimmers.

To argue that his advantage is extraordinary within the entire male population, sure. Well, I wouldn't go with unfair, but's a real advantage. But he doesn't race against the male population. He races against other males who are likely to share the same advantage.

This is why The Phelps Gambit (trademark pending) is nonsense, and immediately flags that the person asserting it has read numerous MSM stories about the glorious physique of Phelps (and he was glorious, absolutely), without applying any deeper analysis.

Men can have long arms. Women can have long arms. Men with long arms are better swimmers than women with long arms.

Well said!

I never hear how unfair it is that 7' 6" basketball players have an unfair advantage over 5' 10", regardless of the sex of either.

Here is more about the 'Phelps Gambit'. It is really a weak fallacy to be posting as any credible point.

COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE / PHELPS GAMBIT / PHELPS ARGUMENT

https://x.com/Scienceofsport/status/1820462042765001041

Ross Tucker

5 August 2024

Yeah, poor old Phelps became the poster child for this illogical argument that his advantages are the same as those of males. I'll try to explain why this is such poor thinking. First, Phelps' advantages are not category-crossing. That is, there is no category for short arms, and there is no category for small feet, or high lactate producers etc. So we have decided, for better or worse, not to create a category for people without Attribute X. And thus, when a person has X, they shouldn't be excluded, so there's no basis to disqualify Phelps.

Now, one could have a debate over whether we SHOULD think about creating a category for small feet or short arms. If we did this, then Phelps' supposed advantages would become 'outside of category', and we'd say that he's not allowed to swim in the protected category, right?
But we don't need to do this, because the advantages that he has are tiny compared to what male advantage does to performance. Phelps wins by 0.5%. Males win by 12% (compared to females). By scale, then, these advantages are orders of magnitude different.

It's also a massive oversimplification to say that Phelps won because his arms are long or that he produces less lactate. They're daft, incorrect attributions anyway. And finally, females also have some of these advantages - there are women who produce less lactate, or have long arms.

They don't make up for the absence of male advantage. So they're totally different situations. Fundamentally, what sport is trying to reward are those exceptional individuals within categories. We actually celebrate these advantages, they make sport what it is, no?

But we need to rule out some other advantages - size/mass in boxing, age in all sport - because otherwise the things that do NOT matter overwhelm the things that do. Phelps physiology matters - it's why he wins gold medals. Katie Ledecky, though, also has physiology that deserves gold.
It's just she doesn't have male advantage as well. And that's the point - "as well". They are equally great swimmers, but within their categories. The only way around this is to say that we should create a category because Advantage X is so large it also overwhelms the result.

But it doesn't - as mentioned, by scale, what Phelps has over males is tiny compared to what males have over females. Put another way - the fastest swimmer with small feet or shorter arms (whatever that means) is not beaten by thousands of longer armed, bigger footed swimmers!
So I hope I've not laboured that or explained it clumsily. To sum up, Phelps is a bad counter point. So is height in basketball (there's no "short people NBA, only 180cm or under" category).

Rather think age, weight and disability class, and ask if the attribute, X, devalues the things we actually want to reward, or whether it's part of it. Phelps' advantages are part of the excellence. Male advantage is not - being male is NOT a talent, and as such, shouldn't be part of the mix. What Phelps has, those are different.

Gwendoline Christie would be mine. I for one think she is fabulous though

She also has a cracking pair of boobs, and a spectacular arse (not that "appearance" is in any way definitive, but she happens to be an absolutely beautiful woman, with no male features whatsoever) and, even more revealingly, she's birthed two children.

The only reason his medical records have become public is his own cheating. He and his managers did this. He's a male fighting females for glory and status.

Peter Tatchell famously bangs on about his TIM friend who plays womens rugby and is apparently so much smaller than the women in his team. This, Tachell argues, is showing how men don't have any advantage.

What Tatchell & co ignores COMPLETELY is there are no small women in the rugby team - and the reason his TIM mate can hold his own on the WOMENS rugby team, being such a teeny little what not, is because he is MALE and has all that male muscle & strength in his small body - whereas a woman of the same size wouldn't make the team and if she did she would be much more physically vulnerable to injury.

The stupid is so strong in this movement - how on earth did they make so mch ground? How on earth did they convince so many people that men can be women with words and it will only concern you if you are a nasty bigot?

I followed the whole article from the link OP provided.
It's complicated. If you can read it in the orginal French do so, it's clearer.
https://lecorrespondant.net/imane-khelif-ni-ovaires-ni-uterus-mais-des-testicules/

It's not black or white really. He/she seems neither one or the other.
I agree that they probably shouldn't be boxing as a woman, but also I am uncomfortable with the witch hunt. I've been to that part of Algeria- it is poor and is socially quite conservative (unlike Algiers where you see girls in jeans and t-shirts), and as others have said, they were brought up as a girl, not a boy.

thanks for posting this.

I was looking for the excellent podcast Ross Tucker did on Science of Sport back in the 2020 Olympics on this subject when Laurel "I wanna be an answer to a Trivial Pursuit question & I am used to getting what I want" Hubbard cheated his way into womens weightlifting.

But I couldnt find it.

All human beings are either male or female. No such condition exists where a human can be both/or neither

adding to @Helleofabore 's excellent point, if you watched the Olympic womens boxing the two MALE players won every single match they entered into. Their female opponents scored no points against either of the men in any of the fights.

This is highly unusal at Olympic level boxing - perhaps unprecendented?

This is outrageous discrimination against female athletes and so dangerous for them. How can the rules be changed well in time for the next Olympics?

Please read the thread.

There is a huge amount of information about 5ARD athletes on this thread.

Khelif is not 'neither one or the other.' This is very much misinformation and offensive.

Khelif is a male person with a difference of sex development under the name of 5ARD. Only male people get this. They have testes and their bodies produce testosterone and other hormones and use those hormones to go through male puberty.

Having a penis or not, nor having visible testicles or not does not make someone not a male person.

It is irrelevant to the sport and the sex category they are participating in that they were 'brought up as a girl' under organisations that understand how very dangerous it is to allow a male person to punch female people in boxing. The IOC failed to have any regulations that were boxing specific and therefore they allowed this boxer to compete and punch women in the face.

Everyone is either male or female. People with a DSD are just that, people with a DSD. The fact is that certain DSDs are only found in males, and others in females. Ambiguous genitalia does not alter that. Today, tests can detect both the actual sex and also the DSD.
This person is a man with a DSD and has undescended testes and a micropenis. You can't get much more male than having a penis and testes.

The cognitive dissonance on this thread is depressingly familiar. It’s always the same when the “inclusive” “be kind” SJW are faced with hard evidence that they have been unfair and unkind.

In simple terms, they either have to reflect on the truth that they condoned and championed a male punching a female as a good and progressive thing which destroys any pretence of them being progressive and “on the right side of history” or they have to try and argue that reality is not reality.

Anyone who attempts to justify a male punching a female at all, let alone for personal gain, is not progressive or liberal or enlightened but an old fashioned misogynistic bully.

It's not offensive, and certainly not meant to be either.
I'm not saying it's correct- but it wouldn't be an uncommon conclusion based on what the article says.
There's nothing wrong or offensive with finding something confusing. Like many people, I find this story/situation confusing.

so many people cannot/will not admit the truth to themselves.

they keep digging in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

Its tragic really - for us all, & for society at large.

Men aren't women.

Men never will be women.
Not even those men who have DSD's and might have worn a pink ribbon as a child.
Not even those men who really really really want to be women.

None of us get to choose our sex - acceptance of this basic fact is very important. We are seeing how damaging lying about these fundamental trusths can be.

What do you find confusing?

Phrases like this:
Alpha 5 reductase type 2” deficiency, a genetic anomaly which leads to metabolic dysfunction in testosterone and dehydroandrosterone”.

For historical reasons Algeria and France have a very complicated and fractious relationship and Algeria is wont to cry discrimination, imperialism etc whenever France makes a move which doesn’t suit them. I wonder if this has affected decisions made around this case.