to be a bit surprised at the misogyny described/displayed on mn at times?

[nickytwotimes]

Right, well, first off, I love it here. i especially love it because there are plenty of intelligent, witty posters.
However, I am frequently surprised at threads relating to pornography, exchanging sex for "gifts" and fanjo shaving, etc. Now, I know we've all got different ideas about what is acceptable, but sometimes it's like feminism never happened.

dsm are you .. back?

Modelling is not quite the same as stripping or lapdancing. The issues around modelling are somewhat different, that industry supports the eating disorder and drug abusing culture and does not look after young and vunerable women.

And clothes models have high status in our society whilst sex workers don't.

nickytwotimes, read the womens room by maralyn french - its ages since i did but sexual liberation is about as feminist as it gets.

I sometimes shave my fanjo (god i hate that word) i do it solely because my DP likes it. I do it when I feel like it (not very often these days) because i like the reaction it gets, it clearly turns him on and that in turn, turns me on. I havent read the "sex for shoes" thread, im assuming it was tongue (rather than cock) in cheek. I like porn (but i am choosy about what i watch) and i give my DP BJs for no other reason than i like to see a grown man squirm around on the bed

The thing that really gets my feminist goat on here though is this, and this is a very serious issue and that is the whole SAHM /WOHM debate - FFS, if you want to work, great, fantastic, brilliant, if you want to stay home, great, fantastic, brilliant - dont judge my choice, isnt that what feminism is supposed to be about? CHOICE and empowerment - wether someone gives her partner oral sex for a pair of shoes is hardly a major issue is it?

"if you've always been told that sex is dirty and women who like it are slags, or that you are not pretty enough to be desired, a bit of exhibitionism can make you feel more confident and increase your self esteem."

I appreciate your point, madamez, which you've expressed before but never in quite such sympathetic terms.

The politics of housework, low pay, reproductive choice etc are all - absolutely - worthy of our anger. But all these aspects of feminism are interwoven - and the representation of female sexuality, and its wider commodification is, at the very least, as important a piece of the puzzle.

What I find occasionally utterly frightening (yet beneficial for me - nice to see other worlds) is the passivity/homeyness of many women.

Take a fairly typical thread - the one about a woman spending hours worrying about who their DHs might be having lunch with. Bizarre - why not go out and lunch themselves?

Stuff about money really frustrates me on this site too - why not just go out and earn some rather than complain about their DH's earning power (or lack thereof) or shortage of cash.

All this stuff doesn't add up to misogyny of course but occasionally it adds up to subservience.

Bloody hell @ this thread.

Women ripping each other to pieces.

And a great big round of applause to DSM and madamez.

I say, good luck to any woman who can make a living based on what she looks like. It is not more or less worthy than any other job.

I'd be interested to see a staff list on those who work on these lad mags.

If any are women, are they just as worth of the scorn reserved for the women who pose in the magazine, or are they somehow more worthy because they are journos or professionals who use their 'intellect' to create all this?

IMO, labelling a woman misogynist or anti-feminist because of what she choses to do with her body, and her mind is part of her body, too - regardless of the hows or whys, which are as varied as the pattern of snowflakes - is about as misogynist as it comes.

Well it's probably undesirable though don't you think expat? Encouraging men to behave badly and objectify women? Think you are on dodgy ground with that one. I am with you all the way on the Brazilian ishoo though

that's why i asked, Quatto, rather than stating one way or another.

because quite personally i don't really give a toss what women chose to do for their living, as long as it's not dealing drugs or the like.

but it seems to me that it's a bit dodgy to criticise women who make their living as sex workers but not those behind the scenes of that same industry, who are sex workers, too, as far as i can see.

I agree that the men behind the scenes are the ones more worthy of condemnation.

Personally I find magazines like Nuts, Zoo and Loaded with their sneering, juvenile attitude to women far more unpleasant than 'honest' porn.

Who is criticizing the women? I think what is being criticized is the 'post feminist' idea that women are always empowered by being objectified.

Expat, I agree that anyone who is party to that kind of exploitation should receive the same judgements. I think the point is that whilst these women choose what they do with their bodies they only encourage the way men see us. A recent report says that women living near lapdancing bars get a hard time from men, if we portray ourselves as sexual objects ('we' as in women) then we will be treated as such, which makes it harder for every woman and not just those that are proud of their tits.

the women are not being condemned! It is being pointed out that there is a rather successful con going on, largely perpetuated by lad mag culture, which means, yes, largely perpetuated by men.

so they shouldn't be allowed to make their living in such a fashion, Posie, as it may impact how men see you and me?

Quite a few women do work/have worked on lads' mags - and I work/have worked on top shelf mags. And from my own experiences, one or two people might have expressed the idea that it's 'not as bad' because I 'keep my clothes on' but from a lot of others I'd get the 'why cna;t you get a 'proper; job along with 'you're exploiting all these women and you're even more of a traitor to feminism. And you;re a slag and you're not even good looking.'

WIth regard to the housewifyness, I must confess to finding (for instance) the FLY stuff gives me the same sort of baffled irritation that some of the 'boys will be boys' stuff must give the more thoughtful old-school feminists on here.

Expat, It is their choice to work in that industry but, whether through ignorance or plain stupidity, they should not deny the wider impact of their career choice.

Maybe not outright criticised ruty but it has certainly been suggested above that women who (for example) strip are somehow less 'worthy' than those who do 'normal' jobs.

"so they shouldn't be allowed to make their living in such a fashion, Posie, as it may impact how men see you and me?"

Expat, I don't think anyone is saying that they shouldn't be allowed to, simply that the second part of your sentence should be acknowledged and not brushed under the post-feminist carpet.

Madamez, perhaps people don't see it as bad because you are part of the exploitation but not the victim. IMO it's the same.

Janos, not that the women are less worthy but their jobs are... means such a different thing. Who would say that a stripper does as worthy a job as a nurse??

a sex worker has already pointed out that not all sex workers see themselves as victims.

feminists may do so, but how is their judgement any more valid than how the women perceives herself?

i'm not meaning that in another way now than a serious point of curiosity.

ok kerry what would the gift be