to be a bit surprised at the misogyny described/displayed on mn at times?

[nickytwotimes]

Right, well, first off, I love it here. i especially love it because there are plenty of intelligent, witty posters.
However, I am frequently surprised at threads relating to pornography, exchanging sex for "gifts" and fanjo shaving, etc. Now, I know we've all got different ideas about what is acceptable, but sometimes it's like feminism never happened.

I don't agree that all porn is woman hating, dittany. I agree that a lot of it is unpleasant.

I respect your opinion however and don't wish to get into an argument about that.

Anything 'housewifey' is utterly beyond me I'm afraid but each to their own. I'm also very irritated by the endless excuses people come out with for men's atrocious behaviour. Just look at a random selection of threads on here and you'll find that stuff.

could be lol

i have to go and buy tiles shall check when i get back

PP: so it's the women's fault that some of the men who like to watch strippers or view porn cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality and thereby harass 'respectable' women?

not necessarily a victim. Not necessarily empowered either.

I take your point posieparker. But a stripper isn't inherently less 'worthy' as a person than a nurse. That's all I'm saying.

A person is much more than the job they do (if that makes sense).

What sex worker? I thought DSM wasn't a stripper or does she do something else in that industry?
One could argue that victims do not always see themselves as such, perhaps that is due to a lack of perception of what they're party too. Perhaps they are not aware of how they're talked about and perceived by their punters and employees?
Many women in mentally abusive or controlling marriages, for example, do not know they're in one.

also want to second ruty and confirm that I do not, in any way, condemn the women themselves.

I do, however, feel that they have been conned if they believe that they are being empowered, or that it's just a bit of fun, or that any of it is about real female sexuality, rather than a pantomime of female sexuality for the benefit of those who, for whatever reason, find the real thing alarming/insufficiently reflective/uncontrollable etc.

madamez works in the sex industry, posie.

"how is their judgement any more valid than how the women perceives herself?"

I think, expat, that an individual perception of herself is subject to the conditioning power of culture, and 'relativized' by her own personal experiences.

Whereas the perception of feminism as a position or movement is, because it is not made by one individual, less subject to those influences.

Feminism is certainly more aware of cultural conditioning - indeed it is one of its central planks.

but onebat, everyone is conditioned by their culture, even feminists may not be aware of how much they are, too.

the entire movement over the years has been shaped by the cultures in which it operates.

and each woman who considers herself a part of the movement also brings to it her own cultural conditioning and personal experiences, however much she tries to deny them.

She works in publishing right? Hardly a victim of the industry is she?

she doesn't just work in publishing, posie .

and by your line of thinking, Posie, those who work in publishing sexual materials like Nuts or porn mags are exploiting these victims/women who are doing the posing and such, so shouldn't they be regarded as even worse than the women who pose nude/are porn actresses/etc, no?

i'm just trying to understand.

Yes I agree with that too Expat - that's my line of thinking - includes the tits and bums titillation in the tabloids - all written/published/sold for poor wankers by richer wankers

Without wanting to comment on an individual and a personal attack I will say that women that I have met, a handful, in that industry (a stripper, lapdancers from Spearmint Rhino and a high class prostitute) all came accross as deluded. Three felt the need to justify their employment, one was always too high on coke to converse and the other two seemingly admired their own cleavage too much and had nothing moderately intelligent to say. Sneering at my less ample breasts and assuming that I must be jealous of them because they were getting lots of attention due to wearing next to nothing and failing to notice most of that attention would make many women uncomfortable.

The world we are in now I think is a bit like the 60s - when women were burning their bras and were 'liberated' and then later loads of them confessed that they felt pressurised into having sex by blokes.

Nowadays, there is a load of pressure on women to shave their fanjos. And you're being a bit of a spoilsport if you don't want to do it/find having a fanjo like a prepubescent girl a bit disturbing/can't be arsed.

But tbh I find it more worrying/depressing that some women think it's okay for a bloke to draw smiley faces on the family living room carpet in ketchup ...

that is very true, expat. But since it is a collective position it is less likely to be self-deluding than the perception of an individual, I think.

I'd agree that the women who work back of house at Nuts and porn mags should think again. Though they are presumably the victims of the same con-trick as the women who pose.

If anyone is part of exploiting others I guess they are either unaware or more guilty and so, onebatmother's words, they are presumably the victims of the same con-trick as the women who pose.

I'm actually quite insulted by the insinuation that I've had 'the wool pulled over my eyes' by the lads mags industry.

I don't wax and strip for my husband because of some so called post-feminist political movement which has brainwashed me into thinking sexy is good. I haven't been brainwashed, I do it because it turns him on therefore turning me on.

FWIW, he also gets very turned on when we have a dinner party and I talk non stop about politics or whatnot. We just don't have a one dimentional marriage.

Either happy to exploit or being exploited cc?

"FWIW, he also gets very turned on when we have a dinner party and I talk non stop about politics or whatnot."

Sorry, but this is the funniest thing I've read for days.

Oh Lord.
I had to leave shortly after starting this thread - ds woke very upset.
I was after a reasoned debate. I was not suggesting for a moment that anyone should do things my way! Rather, I was hoping to discuss in a reasonable fashion our different attitudes towards some issues which to me relate to women's place in society. I should have known that some people would use it is an excuse to sling personal attacks at each other.

Btw, my comment is in relation to the thread as a whole and i certainly do not include everyone in it!