to be a bit surprised at the misogyny described/displayed on mn at times?

[nickytwotimes]

Right, well, first off, I love it here. i especially love it because there are plenty of intelligent, witty posters.
However, I am frequently surprised at threads relating to pornography, exchanging sex for "gifts" and fanjo shaving, etc. Now, I know we've all got different ideas about what is acceptable, but sometimes it's like feminism never happened.

I think it is horrific to suggest that models and dancers are not proud of their careers, just because you feel you have done better than them.

What a terribly self-righteous opinion.

I agree, DSM! Bloody Hell!

Honestly, I think the advertising job is more worthy. This maybe unfair DSM but the advertising exec is never going to have to justify the morality or value of her job as no-one will ask and if her advertising sales means that a company keeps selling and the manufacturers keep employing then hers is more worthy anyway.

Oh - and to add - how much time do you spend at work, away from your children on a combined household income of £264,000?

Another benefit of modelling/dancing is that you don't have to work as many hours, and can spend a lot more time with DC's.

i think people do judge the morality of advertising very often

why else is there a debate adverts for junk food and fags and alcohol have been binned

Posie - both jobs are advertising.

Which one do you think is more worthy? The office job?

Proud of what though? How turned on the big group of lads who talked about you like a piece of meat? Or the lonely bloke who wished he couls take you home?
Look DSM if you want to strip then do it but don't expect people to congratulate you on a worthy career or agree that it's a feminist choice, just accept that lots of people find what you do rather distasteful. But it's your life not theirs and if you love it, brilliant. Just be sensible and invest your money and remember no-one makes more from your body than the employer and your career will not last forever, so save.

Yes the office job, and I don't work so we only have my dps income. I'm in a very good position and don't expect many to have the choices that I do... you really will not convince me that every woman who has the choice (and I've seen how rough some lapdancers are) would strip because they'd make more money.

lots of careers dont last for ever

there is nothing so divisive on mn as comparing jobs and earnings/income

i think it even surpasses the sahm wohm debate

mn should be celebrating that we all come to it with different backgrounds rather than a homogeneous lump of pcness

what kind of discussion of sexuality is acceptable to those arguiong the mysoginist point|?

sometimes it does seem like sex is a bad thing on mn

Posie, I don't strip

And saying the career won't last long is bollocks, my 2 cousins are both models, have been for over 20 years.

Some people age well. Many over 35 are still capable of modelling. Teri Hatcher? Gwyneth Paltrow? Andie McDowell? Kim Basinger? Cindy Crawford? Calista Flockhart? Nicole Kidman? Angelina Jolie? Oh I really could go on for ages.. and those are just famous ones.

Being proud of how you look, how you photograph, how you wear clothes, how people want to buy something that you are advertising?

What is an advertising exec proud of exactly?

How is it not misogynistic to say that all strippers, porn performers and sex workers are dirty, desperate and stupid? While many are indeed exploited and dislike their work, you could say the same of supermarket checkout staff, fast food employees and people in a wide variety of boring badly-paid jobs - and a lot of these people will be women who may well have to put up with sexual harrassment from management and colleagues into the bargain. While I cannot, obviously, speak for every sex-industry worker in the known universe, I do know of women who have funded university degrees through stripping, modelling and escorting, women who get paid well for escorting and enjoy it as much as they would enjoy any job (and these are not just people I once spoke to in a casual conversation, these are friends.)
What drives me absolutely mad whenever we get into the porn debate is that so many people seem to think that you either insist every woman shaves her chuff and learns to pole dance, and if she doesn't want to she's a silly spoilsport, or you claim that anyone who does choose to work in the porn industry or go to a swingers' party is either a helpless victim or a wicked anti-feminist traitor. Some women genuinely do find taking their clothes off empowering, at least for a while (you can get bored with anything) - if you've always been told that sex is dirty and women who like it are slags, or that you are not pretty enough to be desired, a bit of exhibitionism can make you feel more confident and increase your self esteem. Endless niggling over what exactly constitutes proper feminist sexual behaviour is not only a waste of time (human sexuality varies immensely) but it's a waste of time that could be far better spent addressing the more damaging objectification and second-class treatment of women: the low pay, the continual threat to reproductive choice, the POLITICS OF HOUSEWORK which has far more of an impact on far more women's real lives than a porn movie: while so many men still think that all the cooking and cleaning and caring is what women are for (and they should therefore do it for love not money) feminism has a lot more work stil to do.

Angelina Jolie's 33

32, sorry. You could add Kylie to the list though.

BRAVO, madamez!

Applauds.

out of interest, is there anyone on this thread whose partner buys nuts or loaded? Surely we should be working on the men rather than having a go at the women?

Don't get me wrong, all hetero men like looking at sexy women as we like looking at sexy men. I would think a lot less of a male friend if i knew they bought nuts or loaded, but i don't judge the women who appear in those magazines.

and i dont really understand the difference between getting a hair cut and getting a brazilian- personal choice and all.

Well said madamez. I've lost count of the number of threads on MN that critisise other women for their choices - packed with implications that there is only one way to be when being a mother or wife. Not a fan of porn personally (although I prefer honest to goodness porn to the constant and not-so-subtle sexualisation of the mainstream) but I do agree that there are many many more important battles yet to fight.

That was so interesting to read. Thank you ladies!..

don't think anyone is saying sex workers or porn performers are dirty, desperate and stupid. I think people are saying it might be wrong to assum it is always empowering. I think people are saying that there has been a shift in the perception of 'liberation' thanks to a lad mag culture where objectifying womens' bodies has become supposedly 'empowering' for women. this is very different to saying that individual women can't enjoy porn or sex for money.

I agree, madamez! (first time for everything! )

If you're going to look down on strippers/models etc, then surely the same applies to footballers and other sports men and women? They're using their bodies to make money too. Maybe not the naked body but female tennis players for example don't hide much more than many women who pose for lads mags.

We all use the assets we were given. I was a size 10 pre kids (now a 12) but no way was I given a modelling body, too hairy for a start and Dcup boobs. I used my brains instead. Many women aren't academic so use fab looks/body to make a living instead. Some women are lucky enough to have a choice between the two. Good luck to them too!

OrmIrian, I have far more issues with the sexualisation of young girls (low cut tops and g-strings in tammy girl) than I do with adult women making rational consensual decisions.

yes i thought feminism was about choice and equality of opportunity and lack of discrimination rather than perceived wrong choices of other women

and i dont get the head and body hair difference

well clearly i do get the difference i know where my head is

well some of the time anyway

DSM, apologies for my mistkae.. I genuinely thought you did strip, assumptions 'eh!!