To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

My Great Granny was one of 12, sadly not all made it into adulthood, very poor household. She went onto to have 8 children, my Grandad then had 6 children, my Dad had 4 - 2 of us have had 2 children and 2 none.

None of the mothers where SAHP all worked to some degree - probably not career roles.

I’ve had 2 with 6 years age gap. I want them to have the opportunities I didn’t have - the choice to go to uni or not, help with driving as examples. Quite of few if my cousins have chose not to have children.

We also lucky my Great Granny, fear of losing a child and no access to birth control. Due to the number of children they often ended up trapped in the poverty:(

The fact that this is what was at the top of your head is another problem. Yes, having kids is expensive, but this is made even worse by consumerism. Trips to Santa aren't needed!

I find the argument of people had happy childhoods with less in the past an odd one because we are no longer in the past. Kids now will compare themselves to kids now and most will be unhappy if they aren't achieving certain standard of living. It is worse thanks to youtube etc with kiddy influences showing off vast wealth. I remember having to explain over and over that Ryan wasn't actually unboxing all these toys to keep, that the friends were actors and it is all scripted. Kids don't understand any of that.

It also doesn't help that things that were a lot cheaper became a lot more expensive over a short period of time. We live in a 2 double bed and 1 box room with 2 kids and it is fine. Even if I would love a second bathroom, it's not the end of the world. But if I had bought 10 years later, property prices would have doubled, so there would be no way we could fit 2 kids in what I could have afforded. Then any day trips, cinema etc have all gone up massively since covid. No wonder people starting out now are having fewer kids.

I’m just saying they might. I wouldn’t want them to!

if the UK went back to having a population of about 40 million I think everyone would be much happier. Maybe my great great grandchildren will benefit!

I think they already have plans how to cope with the elderly- assisted dying.

it’s inevitable, a county of largely old people can’t survive unless they maybe have their own oil reserves.

It does always get me on these threads when people point out seeing Santa isn’t an essential. No it’s not, but the point of actively choosing to have kids is surely because you want to give them the best time you possibly can all through their life? Like it or not, money makes things easier. Saying yes you can have 8 friends to your bowling birthday party, of course we can go pumpkin picking, or to see that film you really want to see. As a teenager, yes let’s buy you a decent school bag and are keeping up with the trends otherwise you won’t fit in with your friends. Let’s make sure you have your own room and a space to retreat to rather than having to share with a sibling. Of course you can stay in that uni accommodation, it’s closer to campus and means it’s easier for you to attend your lectures. You’re engaged? That’s fantastic, here’s a contribution to the honeymoon / let’s go wedding dress shopping.

No you don’t HAVE to do any of the above but I equally don’t think it’s wildly outside of what people hope to provide, and what was easier to provide only 10-15 years ago

if the UK went back to having a population of about 40 million I think everyone would be much happier. Maybe my great great grandchildren will benefit!

Not if it’s mainly older people…

See above ^

No but they are fun! and life surely isn’t all about the grind but having fun too?!

One million percent agree with you. Really blows my mind. Sure you could just say no to everything but your kid didn’t ask to be here.

Definitely people have higher expectations When I was a child with a nice comfortable mc suburban childhood sharing rooms was norm, one week uk holiday, one or two hobbies eg brownies.
It’s not just when child is small it’s the whole getting them launched. Parents are expected to contribute thousands to children at uni in England, then some help with deposits, driving lessons etc.
Having children later if you’ve had a nice life you don’t want to give that up you are used to travel, meals out etc.

People can’t afford children because they’re not prepared to work the hours needed anymore.

🙄

Being child free does not get you out of traumatic hospital/gynaecological experiences. See the Campaign Against Painful Hysteroscopy

huh It won’t be. That’s the point. The proportion of old to young will be smaller than it is now.

I’m done with having children but for the first time ever I question if it was the right thing to do bringing children into this sort of world and I worry about how difficult life will be for them. We got lucky with buying a house and making money on the sale of that to buy another but I don’t know how my kids will manage.

We also have less money now than we ever had despite our household income being significantly higher, my husband and I have given up our social lives so our kids can do the activities they want to as we can’t afford both anymore.

We need there not to be a decreasing population otherwise we’ll be fucked when ‘we’re’ old as there’ll be no money rolling in to pay for the ever increasing cost of an elderly population with increasing healthcare needs.

I think COL comes into it but it's more simple than that. Women now have choices. A lot of men are not decent and treat their partners poorly. In the case of divorce or separation, women are typically left to raise the children single handedly with minimal financial support from the child's father. Who wants to expose themselves to that risk?

Even when families stay together, the load on mothers has increased. They no longer stay at home and raise their children. They are expected to work and continue to raise the kids, look after the house etc with generally minimal support from their partners.

Women are on a hiding to nowhere and they're not prepared to do it anymore.

If you want birth rates to increase, fathers need to support their children and be 50% in everything. Child support should be based on a standardised cost to raise a child, not "what the father can afford". What the mother can afford is never taken into account and women are typically left holding the bag as the man "has to work". What's the woman doing? How does she magic up money if the father is paying a pittance to support his children? Maybe she's working too. But her options get curtailed as she's expected to be on call for all things child related while the father doesn't have those limitations.

Yes, not all situations are like that, but the vast majority are. Is it any wonder women are having fewer children?

It's not that people can't afford to have children. It's that they don't want them enough to sacrifice their lifestyles for them.

My parents and my in laws had 11 children between them - big families were once the norm. Both were single income families - they managed without huge piles of presents, foreign holidays, cars on finance. Children shared bedrooms.

If people really want lots of children then they'll manage, but most would rather stick at one or two and enjoy a better standard of living.

I was listening to some demographers doing interviewers and their take was its actually not easy or even worthwhile to tease out the economic and social reasons because in their view economic pressure rapidly becomes social pressure/norms. So smaller families to cost then it rapidly become socially usual to have smaller families.

They were looking at decline in USA since 2007 but even there a large proportion was huge drops in teen pregnancies - generally considered a good thing.

There are lots of reasons and it's been on a decline for a while now - and it's a trend the bulk of the world's countries are now on.

No I know that but it isn't doesn't make it right or good

@Drfosters im not sure what you are still confused about. Birth rates won’t go back up just because you think they might do. A smaller population will still have similar demographics re ages.

Would you be living your comfortable life and privately educating your children, without the "passive income" from your buy to let properties? What hours of working does that passive income require?

Well that’s me. Pre the success stage but we are staying afloat so to speak. Two jobs, two businesses. One toddler and one in the oven.

Im not sure come Wednesday I’m even going to be classed as a working person. So to say it’s the same as it was I’m not quite sure.

If it gets really bad then atleast we have a high LTV and low mortgage borrowing. Worst comes to worst we will go employed and take UC.

Fingers crossed it works out

I don't understand these prices. It's utterly insane. Just why?

I know you need to pay minders' wages, insurance, rent the premises, utilities, etc. But all the other countries pay these too.

Back in my home country (EU) it's 200-ish/month for a nursery place. Now as per google, it's 115 quid/month in Sweden, 203 in Iceland, 280 Norway, 270 Germany, 314 Japan, 334 Denmark, 575 Canada, 511 France, 247 Finland, 470 Belgium, 303 Spain, etc. Only 4 countries with costs over a 1000 is Switzerland, Luxembourg, Netherlands and Australia.

Presumably all of them have the same running costs as the UK.

These prices are insanity. The service you get is not worth the money you pay. Not by a long shot.

I’m a Millennial, the female breadwinner and mother of 3 small children. Apart from childcare, I actually don’t think kids cost that much. Or rather, they don’t need to cost that much.

There’s an awful lot of ‘extra’ stuff that seems to have become normal and somehow parents feel guilt by not doing it - multiple activities every week, themed ‘experiences’ (pumpkin picking, Santas grotto, Easter egg hunts), expensive birthdays at activity centres.

A lot of pressure of this ‘extra’ I think comes from social media (which then triggers the parent guilt that somehow our kids are missing out). As a child in the 80s, I definitely didn’t get a lot of ‘extra’ but it also wasn’t the norm (a birthday party at McDonalds to me was the aspiration, and I never went to one!). So I wonder how much of the costly ‘extra’ we are imposing on ourselves since we didn’t have it?

True