To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

It’s a multitude of reasons, cost of living, women having more equal career opportunities and being unwilling to give up that lifestyle and possible progression for children, less people willing to settle down these days, either because a lot of people’s expectations are way too high, but on the other hand, more women are realising they don’t want to settle with shit men.

I think the way dating is today isn’t helping with people not wanting to settle down because they have the illusion of choice on apps and casual sex is becoming easier. Some people are also worried about climate change and the effects on future generations. I don’t think it can be reduced to one simple reason.

My daughter is 30 but can't find a decent man!
She still lives at home but is desperate to move out - but where we live is astronomical to afford a flat let alone a house! She needs a partner to be able to afford it.

She says men her age are wishy washy and only want to 'have fun', and aren't serious about relationships.

Alongside that, it's the cost of housing.

My husband and I still work so we aren't around to be babysitters or child carers, whereas our mums had retired and were only willing to help us with our kids.

The house we bought at 30 could not possibly be afforded today on our children's sales or savings. It's just impossible

It’s also not just the pensions but the NHS, the fact future generations are approaching older age as renters.

I don’t think it is ideal but to compare to an every expanding population it is is lesser of 2 evils

Who is advocating for that? And it’s never going to happen, no country has massively increased birth rates. What would be better is a reduced population but with a balance across age groups.

I do wonder whether this is a factor as well. I know women who won’t have a second child because they’ve been so traumatised by their birth experience due to terrible care. I also feel like the realities of childbirth and maternity care are talked about very openly nowadays (and rightly so), I wonder how many child-free women are put off by it.

Agree with previous comments re economic pressures. The comment re how society views mums and the fact that we’re in a no win situation (bad mum if you work and use nursery, lazy non ambitious if a SAHM) really struck a chord too. Parenting is hard work these days - doubtless it was hard in years gone by too! - but you’re expected to give 150% effort, make memories, gentle parent, don’t waste any of their precious 18 summers etc. Gone are the days of sending kids out to play and expecting them home by dusk. There’s a lot of pressure. I imagine it was far easier to have 5 kids when you didn’t see them for 9 hours of the day! Also most of us no longer have a ‘village’ and we’re doing it alone. So, we can manage one or two but quite frankly we’re all so exhausted we just don’t have it in us to have any more!

It's not just money.

It's uncertainty about the future of the world. It's women wanting and needing careers.

In every country in the world the birth rate has been falling relentlessly for decades - at least in places where women can access the job market, education and reproductive care.

And in reality the only way we'll be able to keep our economies functioning at anything like the level they're functioning now is with immigration and increased automation - so maybe everyone needs to stop resenting immigrants for everything and wishing them gone.

the government can plan for the difficult 20 or so years where the population is top heavy.

We already have more over 65s than under 15s. The point is the government hasn’t planned for it….

@Mlanket

Yes I understand about the NHS

I think it's a vicious circle though as the immigrants also require healthcare and seem to have quite a few healthcare issues as well as the elderly.

I think it's a shame that the government will give women money for them to pay another woman to raise their child but won't give them money to stay at home and raise their own child.

Babies are just not that appealing, then they grow up and criticise you and tell you everything you did wrong during their childhood. No thanks. Plus this world is overrated and I sense a definite shift in people thinking "would my kids even want to be here?" which was never even a consideration before.

It’s part of the reason but certainly not the full explanation. Birth rates are collapsing across the developed world, not just in the UK.

100%. On circa 65k (more like 70 probably) we bring in 4.5k net, total. So certainly couldn’t afford to lose literally all of our income to two full time nursery places. How would we keep a roof over our heads and feed ourselves, not to mention anything else?

I imagine shit maternity care also plays a part.

Yes there is a shortage of about 2500 midwives

This.

just To even it up- I know lots of people who ‘put it off’ - myself included so we could be more financially stable/ in a good (well better!) relationship and conceived easily over 35. From this chat and general newspapers etc it shows attitudes of ‘post 30 women are rotting’ . I genuinely thought I’d struggle coz of this narrative I’d grown up with and I didn’t at all.

some people don’t realise the level of chaos that come with poverty, your whole month ruined because of an unforeseen bill. Anyone who has lived that no doubt puts off having children to protect them from the stress and chaos- I did. But the goalposts keep moving on how much money you need to be comfortable now!

also even with relatively nice male partners a lot of us have experienced misogyny which we’re trying to pick through.

until attitudes to women and ‘women’s work’ change I just wouldn’t recommend it if you are unsure- unless you are wadded so can outsource mental load stuff AND choose whether you work, nothing worse than wanting to be with your children but having to work/have them in childcare.

@suburburban immigration is not going anywhere. No government will be reducing it despite what they may say.

But not everyone wants to stay at home though? I have a friend who is an MD. She worked her arse off through secondary school to get into med school, then through med school, her placements as a junior doctor, specialist exams and so on. She loves medicine and is bloody good at it. She took a year of mat leave when she had her first and only baby - why should she have to give up something that she worked so hard to achieve?

That's the whole point - there should be a choice. And providing funding for women to be SAHM is lovely in theory, but it doesn't go any way at all to addressing the massively entrenched sexism and misogyny in our society. Which is a significant contributory factor in a declining birth rate - look at South Korea and Japan as examples.

I think you are right. I grew up in a large family on a very low income (minimum wage didn't exist then). It was a miserable existence and I just wasn't prepared to inflict such a grim childhood on another child.

So I waited until I had the necessary resources, and I only had one. It was the kind and responsible thing to do.

For me to have had another child, the govt would have to implement real employment protections for pregnant women, not the limp excuse for protections that currently exist. And affordable childcare. Without those, as a minimum, not a chance.

Agree with many of the above factors already cited. In addition, while we don't have equal career opportunities / pay yet, women's careers have progressed massively in the last generation or so. Many women who were previously forced to stay in unhappy relationships out of necessity can now choose to be financially self-sufficient instead. Married women were required to leave the workforce well into the 20th century. That still blows my mind. It's the economic equivalent of the Pill.

Well reducing one generation by a quarter creates an inverted triangle. It is very top heavy for 20-30 years of the people over 60.

once they die off the next generation is much smaller. Now the population reduction could affect further generations but the top of the inverted triangle will be smaller so will affect each subsequent generation less. . As the population reduces and the pressure is relived then people may start to have bigger families again.

simplistic obviously as immigration has an effect amongst other things.

You're right - but we don't need to eat fish or drive cars.

People can’t afford children because they’re not prepared to work the hours needed anymore. Two, three jobs…overtime when it’s there. I live a very comfortable life with two children in private school because I chose to work two jobs at uni, bought a house from the money I saved while there, more houses for passive income as the years went on while still working two extra jobs and building my business

@Newposter180

But the poor people arent really paying for their own children - isn’t that the point? Look at the PP above quoting £4500 per month for 2 in nursery if you don’t qualify for government help. That’s a huge amount of money and would be more than most people’s salary.

Yeah I’m not saying it’s not a factor. It’s harder, relatively speaking, to afford a child if you’re middle class than living on benefits.

But I still think the biggest factor is that women no longer feel it’s the only option open to them.

Womens lives have opened up vastly in the past 50 years through education, contraception and social change. The traditional model of having a family is just one of several paths on the table for them. It’s hardly surprising that a fair amount of people decide it’s not for them.

I think they already have plans how to cope with the elderly- assisted dying.

@Drfosters there will be less people but the populations will still be top heavy.

As the population reduces and the pressure is relived then people may start to have bigger families again.

Why would that happen? Countries have tried incentives and that hasn’t worked.