To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

Financial pressure must be the main reason. That and women not feeling so compelled or obliged to automatically have children just because they're in a long term relationship/married.
I guess maybe the rise in people with 'gender' issues could also play a part.

Recommend this documentary on the subject

Many people are prioritising, and are prioritising having a comfortable life, a decent career, a house and holidays over having children.

A comfortable life, a house and a decent career are out of reach for millions though even without dc.

If the men in charge want us to have more children they are really going to have to step it up in terms of making it worth our while. Maternity benefits, career protection, education programs for boys/young men, tax benefits, funded childcare. They need to stop men beating and murdering us as well. The falling birth rate is a global issue in developed countries and the UK is no where near the worst impacted.

All this. Plus serious SERIOUS consequences for men who even try to abandon their responsibility to their children.

i honestly think it is because most people are just happy with 2 children maximum. They just don’t feel the need to have more. Society is geared towards 2 adults and 2 children and in terms of time and expense it makes for an easier life. You are simply replacing yourself which is also best for the environment.

Birth rates have been below replacement rate for years, one child families are the majority.

A managed reduction of the population over the next 50 years sounds like a good thing to me.

Its not managed reduction to have mainly old people though.

The only benefit I ever hear for an ever growing population is ‘who is going to pay our pensions’? The economy should not be treated as a giant Ponzi scheme!

But that is how the economy works currently so changing the model is quite a process. There are also social, cultural changes that come with an ageing population not just economic ones.

I think there is a lot in this, which is not to say the other factors aren't applicable.
Take the santa experience as an example - I know it's just one thing, but you don't HAVE to take kids to see father christmas at the big event every single year. Your kids aren't going to be deprived and christmas won't be ruined if they don't go, even if some of their friends do. You could just do the 'big' event once, then maybe a smaller garden centre one another year.

There's only a very few years when kids are both old enough to fully 'understand' the santa experience (and not start screaming when they're plonked on a stranger's lap) and when they stop believing or find it a bit embarrassing. It's not an annual essential, neither is winter wonderland and the local magic lights festival and ice skating and buying fancy costumes for the school play and christmas eve boxes or whatever. I don't remember any of the several times I went to see father christmas as a child, but I do remember getting in the car and going round to see the different houses and their decorations and staying up late to go to midnight mass and singing carols in the church (both free).

I listened to a podcast about this recently and you are certainly in the right lines with why people are choosing not to have children or have less children. It’s the lifestyle the parents want for the children and the ability to afford this that’s dictating the amount of children.

I’d love to have a 3rd child but we spent all our savings on nursery for the first two and can’t afford a third because it would mean another 3/4 years of ever escalating nursery fees, buying a bigger car to fit the car seats in, eventually a bigger house because 3 teenagers would not fit in our tiny 2 bed house, more money on days out and Christmas and birthdays etc. And yes, I would like to go on some holidays eventually.

If immigrants are coming in in droves like we are told they are then it will benefit the economy as many will work and contribute.

Yes. Countries need to look at how we are going to care for the elderly bulge population with a significantly lower workforce, not try and guilt trip women into having more children. Long term, fewer people will mean more resources.

Structurally, I think we have created a society that requires more people to be in education for longer, so they start earning later and start their working lives with substantial university debt. Then we want to get to a stable point on the career ladder before settling down with a life partner. Only at that point do we start considering whether our living arrangements are family friendly.

For women, because our biology is more sensitive to age, this prolonged period of setting up our adult lives can be disastrous. The proportion of mothers of 2, 3 and 4 or more children remains broadly unchanged. There are more one child families, but the biggest societal change has been women who never have any children. Almost a third of women in the western world never become mothers now. But only 5% of women are childless by choice. At present, half of all 30 year olds who are not already mothers or expectant mothers, will never have children. Society tells them they have plenty of time, but for many of them that is simply not the case.

Exaxtly, well put

Amen, l'm at a loss why it is seen as a problem

I think lots of women now don't feel this pressure to be chosen by a man with whom they can have children with. I spent my formative years having this agenda pushed on me - getting a boyfriend, being in a couple, hanging out with other couples. Have you got a boyfriend? Why not? What's wrong with you? It was relentless.

Plus, men haven't evolved much and many don't see childcare and housework as their domain. So many threads on here about useless men. So you have to work, get discriminated against because you have the temerity to got on maternity leave, and do everything at home and be skint because it's so expensive.

Families don't stay in the same area so often you have no network. No villages raising children round my area!

Then totally lose your sense of self being everything to everybody else. Some women are juggling not just children but parents and inlaws too. The the school sends home a note about some bake sale or dress themed day and it's all too much.

Your nether regions are never the same and you pee when you laugh or run for the bus.

No small wonder really.😬

Probably lots of reasons but I wonder if more women are realising they are the ones getting the raw dealing when it comes to having children, and just deciding it’s not worth it.

Nope Im a child free by choice working class social housing tenant

It's a lot already and it makes it even more unaffordable for the people already here who are competing for housing and services

Because there’s one worker to several pensioners right now which isn’t enough and will only get worse with this problem. Genuinely.

I think people's aspirations are higher now. When I was growing up it was very much not the norm for people to go on a foreign holiday every year, have multiple extracurriculars, and have parents who saved for their futures. Those people were unusual.

Things have changed though. Whether your parents own their home & can help you will have a bigger impact on your chance of owning a home vs your income. My immigrants bought without help on one salary, I was working as was DH & still needed help to get on the ladder. And I could not afford to buy where I grew up. I’m mindful that I need to help my dc.

The pension problem is only a problem for one generation- after that point there are less old people and think how wonderful it will be for the next generations that come after them having a lower population to look after.

the government can plan for the difficult 20 or so years where the population is top heavy.

I don’t think it is ideal but to compare to an every expanding population it is is lesser of 2 evils

It's a lot already and it makes it even more unaffordable for the people already here who are competing for housing and services

How do we quantify a lot though? What would the NHS look like without immigrants?

But the poor people arent really paying for their own children - isn’t that the point? Look at the PP above quoting £4500 per month for 2 in nursery if you don’t qualify for government help. That’s a huge amount of money and would be more than most people’s salary.

The pension problem is only a problem for one generation- after that point there are less old people and think how wonderful it will be for the next generations that come after them having a lower population to look after.

@Drfosters why is it only one generation?

I think greater numbers going to university has had a big impact, especially on total number of children.

University educated people now start families in their early 30s rather than late 20s, due to variety of factors including but not limited to:
starting a career getting pushed later so earning power/reaching flexibility being pushed later too,
not meeting a breeding partner until a few years out of uni and then needing a while together before starting a family,
increasing qualification inflation making a masters seem required to have an edge in the way anything past a-levels once gave (another year),
the cost of uni (twice) then reducing take home pay even further,
etc

If you don't start until 5 years later, you might well not have time to fit in your ideal number of children before fertility declines.

There is simply a lot more for women to do now other than have babies.