To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

I suspect many women in Afghanistan, if they had access to reliable contraception and healthcare, would not be choosing to have children given the way that women and girls are currently treated.

I wonder about the effect of having so many young people tied up in tertiary education for an extra 3 (or more) years.

It's over a third of young people now - in 1970 it was 8%. 3% in 1950.

That's a lot of years not earning at the start of your adult life, and graduates may then feel they need to get the benefit and establish a career for the rest of their 20s.

Which may or may not be better financially than had they gone straight into the workplace and started earning and saving from age 16 or 18.

And then you feel you have fewer years to give to parenting.

My nephews and nieces are late 20s / early 30s and worry about bringing children into this word -climate change, wars, pandemics, terrorism, polarisation of society and neglect of infrastructure leading to rising crime etc.

Other countries have offered big incentives to women to encourage them to have children, it hasn't worked.

I think part of the reason there has been a decline in women having children is that motherhood hasn't been valued. Ever. Particularly men.

It's one of the hardest things you can do and yet society tells you to shut up and get on with it.

So no wonder women think 'fuck that'.

As a woman once said, 'I would love children if I got to be their dad.'

Absolutely agree with all of this!

I think there has been an impact on jobs as well - many more jobs now require a degree as part of their entry-level criteria. Whereas even 20 years ago there were more job opportunities available that weren't graduate-only. But if you are encouraging young people to go to Uni and pay for the privilege of doing so, then you need to give them a reason to go.

The problem is that it becomes a vicious circle. Back in my day, a graduate job would always pay more than a non-graduate job. Now, I don't think there is so much of a distinction because so many jobs ask for a degree. I feel very sorry for young people right now - the whole social contract is breaking down. No wonder so many are pissed off.

Same here. I’m one of 4. Didn’t go on foreign holidays, to theme parks etc as a child.
Wouldn't be without my 3 siblings for the world. They’ve enriched my life far more than expensive experiences.

You only have to read threads on here with many expecting to buy 4 bed plus houses at the drop of a hat and saying they need to move if they have a 3 bed house and 1 child only- see also discussion of a 5k AI holiday being 'reasonable' for a family of 2 adults and 2 little ones. aspirations have risen enormously .

My mother told me she had this same thought in 1962/1963 when she was carrying my sister during the Cuban crisis (my father was in the RAF). Every age has its own challenges. Certainly growing up in the years after the war brought many layers of deprivation for us.

Couldn’t agree more.

But it isn’t the same. In a lot of very poor countries it isn’t just poor birth control or just wanting to have children. You have a lot of children so some of them will survive and take care of you in your old age.

It’s just the natural winding down of a species in decline.

It’s a societal shift….only half of my NCT group went on to have a second child. It’s so much more acceptable to just have one now. When I suspect a lot of women felt pressured to have another when they’d really rather not. I hated being pregnant and giving birth, I’m delighted with what it gave me but DC is more than enough thank you very much. Baby shop firmly closed!

Totally agree with you re COL but to me it seems so so obvious to me that most women now see children as a hinderance to having a successful/stable life - carrying all the mental load whilst striving for ‘equality’ whatever that means. It makes for a hard journey and frankly when society offers you hardly any support or reward for the epic effort of making new people; why on earth bother???

I was chatting to an elderly lady in the queue at primark earlier. She must have been in her 80s, had a rolling walker thing. She was saying that she looks after her 4 GREAT grandchildren twice a week because childcare costs so much. The mother and the grandmother are both working so she looks after an 8 month old, two 5 year olds and a 7 year old. FUCK THAT.

I wouldn't have kids if I had to rely on their great grandmother to care for them.

I don’t think that would encourage people to have more children though - none of my peers who are choosing to stop at one or have none at all are doing so because of fear of unpaid child maintenance if they split from their partner.

The government should do this but it won’t have any impact on birth rate.

In reality it's the opposite. Poor people have kids younger, better off people have them later or not at all.

I agree - not directly. However it would be a huge first step in getting non-resident parents who don't pay for their children (and who are mostly male) to realise that carrying the financial burden of having children is not the sole responsibility of the resident parent (more often than not, women). I think that helping to move that entrenched sexism would be meaningful. At the moment, the state's attitude towards CMS arrears is basically tough shit, get on with it.

The South Korea article I posted earlier had some really interesting findings from the women they interviewed. Largely around their - understandable - resistance to being treated poorly because that's what society expects when you're female and have children.

You’ve taken this as being my view but I was making a devils advocate statement to discuss the idea suggested in the post I originally quoted.

What I mean is that if wealthy and educated people do not have children, then what are ‘we’ suggesting about those who are?!

And for the record, before I get called out again, I have more than 2 kids and am
not wealth so I’m exactly the type of person discussed and who you’ve suggested I’m being offensive towards. I’d forgotten online forums (and especially here) are not places to have this sort of conversation without causing major offence.

whilst I agree that finances etc. have a lot to do with this, the main thing I see among my peers (all in our 30’s) is that they have one child and have all decided to stop at one so they can keep enjoying their lives. I only know one couple who might have another. The general consensus seems to be that one child fits into their lives better and they don’t have to change so much of their life to be a family of 3, which having grown up as an only child I think is true. People (strangers!) who find out I’m an only child tell me all the time that they think they’ll only have one and ask me about it.

I think my friends and siblings have not enjoyed parenthood of small babies and toddlers much and when their child has aged out of that seem to have no desire to go back there. I wonder if for a certain section of millennials (people on decent salaries in big cities) lives now are just too good before having kids so it makes having them harder, and people less likely to have more?

I think that "I just don't want them" reason is being massively underplayed. COI maybe causing some people not to have children or having fewer children in order to have a higher standard of living.

But I think for many people they just don't have that strong biological urge or, looking at it rationally, can't see that the benefits outweigh the negatives. But in the past they would have succumbed to societal and family pressure and had kids, especially women.

Years ago an older relative in her 70's with 5 kids asked me if I planned to have any and I said no. She told me she envied me and if she had her time over wouldn't have had any. Who wants to live with regrets like that?

I agree with this.

You forgot something - the focus on women takes away the fact that it’s 50\50 a problem with men. Most women want to settle with a stable, loving partner who will be a good dad. And unfortunately many men are just shit. I’ve now found a good one but honestly, the dross I met over the years. Men are getting less mature and wanting to stay man-boys well into their late thirties and forties, and /or going for younger models, leaving women of their own age on the shelf / getting too old for babies. It’s a massive issue. Dating apps are a big part of this - they give the illusion you can keep dating endlessly and have access to limitless options.

my MIL had 7 children, she married a man who was a catholic and in those days you generally converted if you married into that faith. She basically was having babies for the majority of her reproductive life. When my child was born (she had been a widow for about 12 years by then) we were chatting and she confided in me that if she had any choice in the matter she would have stopped at two children and that while she loved all her children she always wondered what else she could've done with her life. She did work after her husband died and did well and became a supervisor which shows that she had plenty of ability. I am glad that women have more choices these days, yes, it is still hard for us but we have made progress and it is far more acceptable to have far fewer or no children at all

I don't think it's financial, it's more to do with changing culture. Women's worth isn't solely reliant on their role in the family any more. People expect more from life, therefore dont just settle down young and have kids. They wait for the right man, wait to have their career at a good place. Then people have less family support as they've moved for work, their mums are working or are too old as they've left it so late. So then it's harder. Birth control is much easier to get and less stigma attached to termination of pregnancy. Deciding against kids because they like their current lifestyle is also more common.

Financially no one in this country is now as poor as most people were in the 40s and 50s. Life has always been a struggle for the majority, recent decades excepted. It might be an issue of relative finance if people want to be able to afford certain luxury things such as holidays , cars, new clothes. But pre 1950 hardly anyone had those things and they still had kids. In fact most women were washing reusable nappies by hand. No one is so poor they do that now.