To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

In the UK the govt are subsidising businesses to maintain the ridiculously low minimum wage no one can survive on.

In the rest of Europe (most places at least) the governments choose to subsidise nursery places instead.

Once you give women the choice to live their lives childfree, then many women will feel that choice best suits them.

It's also become accepted, certainly in the UK. I mean, any choice a woman makes will be criticised: No dc? Childless cat lady destroying family life. One dc? Selfish. Two or more? I hope you're also working fulltime and those dc are raising themselves because motherhood is not valued and you better not use maternity leave because that is an undue burden on businesses and...

You're damned by misogynist interpretations no matter which choice you make, so you may as well suit yourself. And for plenty of woman, childfree is the right choice.

I don’t think people are having as much sex either so that’s probably one reason.

I have a baby now, but I was adamantly child free for a solid decade. My reasons were:
-expense. It costs over a grand for full time nursery. Not everyone has the luxury of a village. Cost of living is continuing to rise.
-not wanting to bring a kid into the current violent world
-global warming
-life just generally being crap in the UK. Difficult to buy a house. Lack of job opportunities. And so on.
-my own mental health
-knowing that I, as the birthing mother, will be largely responsible for child care
-not being able to do other things I want to do, such as travel

I think the main issue now is coat, and that women no longer want to bare the sole burden of childcare. Also, back in the day, one wage could sustain a family. There's no way one wage will do that now (unless you have a very high paying job). It's financially very difficult to have children!

There is also a massive issue of woman’s health not being a priority. Got married at 30, started trying for a baby and it didn’t happen. Took 6 years to get a diagnosis and I only started treatment this year. I am proactive but the waiting lists are an absolute joke. My consultant does one day a month in surgery. I am desperate for a baby, but at this point I fear it won’t happen.

This isn’t spoken about enough. I saw all of the older women in my family trapped in bad marriages, and a lot of men today haven’t caught up with the fact that women don’t need them, so they actually need to be decent and likeable people for us to enter into a partnership with them. Unfortunately a lot of men don’t live up to that standard.

Not going to lie, every time I have a flicker of doubt about my decision to stay childfree, I read mumsnet for 5 minutes and it reaffirms my choice. It seems that women are still mostly doing the lion's share of childcare and their careers taking a massive hit whilst their DH's remain unscathed. I've read many stories about husbands having affairs with colleagues/using sex workers/ subscribing to OF's after couples have babies. All whilst their partners are at home looking after their kids and cooking them dinner.

I also value my 8 hours of sleep per night, my calm and peaceful home, do not want to risk destroying my body that I work hard on maintaining, enjoy my free time and in particular my holidays/weekends away. Women are aware that they now have the option to choose alternatives for themselves rather than a life that for some would be utter drudgery.

@himyf yes you’re experience mirrors mine. I feel in the last 10 years this weird expected societal pressure to have another child has reduced massively so many people don’t be it for finances or just because being pregnant and having a small baby is really hard work!

To be fair though, the reason people are so fed up with children in public these days is because they're allowed to run around restaurants barreling into tables and other diners, yelling their heads off, and also just yelling on the street as if they're being hung, drawn, and quartered. Children are also allowed into many spaces that used be for adults, like expensive romantic restaurants after 9pm, honeymoon destinations, bars...I'm completely amazed that they haven't turned up in nightclubs yet!

Children today are nothing like as well-behaved as they were in the Seventies and Eighties. That's why people are fed up - parents never shush them or tell them they can't run around a restaurant. Our parents controlled our behaviour in public, whereas many parents these days seem to have no control at all.

Be interesting to see which socio economic group are having the fewest children.

Woman I went to school with has 8 children.I don't think she really has anything to lose by having more babies, whereas any more than 2 would have screwed the life we wanted. You have to go back to my great grandmothers to get anywhere near that number in my family. And the further back you go, the poorer my family was.

We had 2, because I wanted a better life for them than my parents could afford for me. And I wasthinking about providing all the way up to uni and them presumably living at home for a while. But if you just love babies and aren't really thinking of the long term, then you crack on.

Of my close friends from school, we had berween 1 and 2 each, all of us over 30. Around 1/3 chose not to have any children. We're mid 40s now, so that's us all done.

Many of my younger colleagues find the dating pool pretty awful, so no babies there.

I think it's an issue with lots of causes.

Yes, life is too expensive. Most families can't afford to have a parent at home, even part-time, so life is full of stress. Cost of housing and childcare will be putting off many. Also, it used to be a given that everyone wanted to get married and have children. Now it's socially acceptable to remain child-free.

People have to live somewhere and if that requires additional houses,so be it
The LA and developers have to master plan and determine appropriate locations. And yes that includes the country side
we need more new affordable homes, for individuals and families. Thing is no one ever wants it near them or catastrophes the traffic, burden on services

Agree- I would like another but can’t afford it and DH earns a decent salary. It means we get no benefits or free nursery hours so our disposable income is the same as others earning less. But why would people have more kids- it’s expensive, the world is sad. England is falling to bits, there’s stabbings, bullying, social media. It’s not exactly a nice world to be being born into . Then on top of that when you earn and work- you barely have anything to show for it and everything is so tight. So yeah it’s obvious!

I’m really uncomfortable with the posts here suggesting lifestyle inflation (holidays, extra curricular activities etc) is the problem and that’s why people can’t afford kids.

Luxury goods (even clothes) and holidays were more expensive 30/40 years ago so it wasn’t normalised to do those things, but we live in a totally different time now. The basics (food, having a roof over your head) are cripplingly expensive now. We have no affordable childcare whatsoever but are expected to work. On the inverse, air travel, electronics and clothes are cheaper than they have ever been, it is cheaper for me to fly to Spain every week than get public transport to work.

I was born in the 80’s to a teacher and a taxi driver. My grandparents did a lot of childcare. I had a pet pony, we used to travel overseas and I have 3 siblings. The concept that I could have this lifestyle on a teachers salary today is unthinkable, let alone my actual 6 figure salary. No amount of cutting out holidays, after school clubs or wearing second hand clothes would make it possible for me to have four kids.

Edit: IMO ‘poor people having lots of kids’ argument is also not a good one. Teacher mum used to bring in food for the kids at school and do their laundry, I really don’t think we can look to people struggling who have kids as an example that it’s possible for everyone else. These children grow up to become adults trapped in a poverty cycle which has all kinds of health implications, and in an increasingly competitive economy and job market it’s undeniable that being safe financially is up there as one of the best things we can give our kids. The bare minimum is not enough.

Chatting to one of my colleagues last week - she's mid 20s. She was saying that she's given up dating as the behaviour of the blokes was mostly dire, and she was fed up with their expectations. She said there's no way she'd want to have a serious relationship with them, let alone a baby.

Birth rate falling. No allegation of Boris Johnson having a mistress.

Coincidence??

Sister’s husband is from a big family of 8 kids. With that many it is impossible for the kids to have a ‘normal’ childhood because the older ones inevitably end up caring for the younger ones. He spent a lot of time as a teenager babysitting.

Yes. They're in a system where they basically don't have much of a choice. I'm guessing single, childless women are frowned upon. Having a husband would also be one of the few ways, maybe the only way they'd get independence from their parents, and that would mean having children.

This is shocking, the entitlement of the parents of those children! I cannot imagine asking that of a great-grandmother in her 80's with mobility issues. The children's grandmother also should not be expected to give child care. Imagine being in your 80's and having to provide care for not only a small baby but 3 other energetic kids! Shame on the parents, if they can't afford childcare, perhaps they shouldn't have as many.

Cost is definitely the major issue but also the absence of villages. In my case I already struggle to give enough attention to my kid between full time work, my share of household tasks etc. no point in having another and then don’t have time, patience or mental health to engage with them as I would like.

Living without financial pressures is just not about bigger houses and fancy cars as people mentioned before. It’s paying for therapy or treatments skipping NHS long waits if you feel it’s the right call, choosing a private school if your little one is having troubles to adjust to state school in your catchment area, etc. is really about having choices if you need to. Worrying about money when raising kids is super difficult.

We have an 8 year age gap, I regret that now as I’m going on school runs for 16 years but after the first one we just wanted a house and garden for one we had, didn’t think about the second one, until we had a place for us all to live. If I could do it again I’d probably have got it over and done with quick! But then the gov didn’t give the free hours and who can afford the two sets of nursery fees!

Or you could look at it as a fabulous intergenerational family support system, one that works in many other countries and the children are blessed to be to spend time with a great grandparent like that and build fondness and respect for the older generation.

Use your brain FFS How is someone in their 80s with mobility issues going to chase a kid who is running into a main road. DM is 88 and uses a walker and no one in our family would even dream of expecting her to look after kids.

Santa visits are free in our local garden centre and really good.

I’m not saying it’s not expensive but there’s lots of free stuff in this country when you’re not trying to keep up with the Jones’s.

Pre 1950’s people didn’t have those things because of availability and the cost being prohibitively expensive. All of those things are cheaper now than they have ever been, whereas housing and childcare (basics) are not.

The money I could save from cutting out my car or holidays is not going to make a dent in my mortgage or childcare bill (and most people do not have extravagant holidays or car loans anyway).

Side note, I did the reusable nappy thing for sustainably reasons. It turned out to be more expensive and less sustainable because of the amount of laundry I had to do…