To think it’s obvious why the birth rate is falling

[workidoos]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cnvj3j27nmro.amp

Life is prohibitively expensive in this country. We earn the UK average income each and can’t foresee being able to comfortably have a second child without the financial impact being too great. I understand sacrifices can be made but in addition to extortionate childcare and the essentials we want to be able to afford extracurriculars, birthday parties, Christmases, trips away for us and DD and some basic savings for her future. I’m not talking private school or extravagant holidays either. With another this would be harder, I’d have to definitely work full time and for longer to afford it and thus losing out on work life balance for what’s likely to be increased mental load and stress in some way or another.

On a local group someone was saying it’s over £100 for two adults and a child to enter a festive park nearby and see Santa. Mind boggling. As a family of 3 it then feels like the natural choice to stay that way, despite the fact we always saw ourselves with a bigger family.

Does this sound like anyone else’s situation? AIBU to think this news shouldn’t be a surprise?

Yes - but educated, successful and wealthy women tend to want like-minded partners. They are - rightly - much less prepared to put up with lazy, sexist partners. If they end up with someone like this, they have the means to be able to separate themselves and move on. And bloody good for them. Why would you want to have a child with a man who thinks that every school run, sick day, dentist appointment and parents' evening, is mum's problem?

The way to encourage educated, successful and wealthy women to have children, is to ensure that society's attitudes towards child-rearing are fair and equal, and to ensure that these women are not penalised by their workplaces and industries, for having children.

My passive income is because I spent my early twenties working my bollocks off studying and working. How fucking dare you say my passive income isn’t due to hard work.

probably more to do with when you were born & the lending criteria, tax model…

Exactly his. If you save on nursery fees by working part time or staying at home then you realise later on you have no pension and can't retire. If you pay nursery fees for several
Children you have no money for housing.

Meh, having children isn't all that it's cracked up to be. It's pretty dreary and thankless really. I quite like kids (not just my own) - I find the little ones cute and the bigger ones interesting. I like chatting to them and interacting with them. And even I find parenting boring and draining quite a lot of the time.

I come across some parents who also find aspects of parenting rewarding but also a lot who clearly find it all a bit tedious. And it always seems to be the woman who gets dumped on in that situation. For having kids to be worthwhile, I think you've really got to want them rather than think it would be nice or 'the done thing'. And women nowadays realise that and many are voting with their feet.

Erm, I didn't say any such thing. I asked you what hours of work your passive income required.

First off, we don't care what you want. We are individual people who make our own decisions for ourselves and don't want to be dictated to about our bodies and lifestyle choices.

Secondly, what you've said in the second part is both impossible and offensive to a lot of people.

I never had a second one partly because of poor, well I hesitate to use the word "care". I had to have therapy to help me recover from the trauma of my child's birth. I did fall pregnant again but miscarried and to be honest although the miscarriage was deeply upsetting I was filled with utter terror at the thought of going through childbirth again. I am glad that women are able to be more open and honest about what they have been through physically and emotionally in pregnancy and childbirth.

And then get left, because society is all about individual fulfilment these days. And she's likely scaled back her work hours because she has too much to do, given that many men don't take an equal part in the domestic side.

Well yeah...

I know a bunch of young people 27-33 ish who are really quite immature in many ways, even though they have a University degree, and a home, and have travelled extensively, and have a successful career. Despite being smart and clever, they are in no way, even close to being ready to have a baby.

30+ years ago, most people I know were married at mid 20s or younger, and had their first baby by 30 - even the 'career' people with good jobs and a University degree. Most have coped fine and raised good kids.

Millennials seem to be more immature at say, 30, than the generation before them, and many of them seem barely ready for the responsibility of a baby even at 32-33. And some are just not having children, because they don't fit in with their active, travelling, career-driven, need-my-me-time lifestyle, where they're bored easily and always looking for the next exciting thing in their life. They also don't like the idea of the commitment of a child.

Some young people I know (around late 20s/early 30s,) are lovely kind intelligent hard working people, but no way should they have children. Maybe in 5-6 years. Maybe. Possibly never. They just won't be able to cope with them IMO. I don't mean ALL millennials of course, but some (and Gen Z too.) In addition, I know some millennials who have had a baby (or two) and are genuinely struggling with being a parent. It's hard work, and it's derailed their life.

Some of them are having a really rough time with the culture shock of having a baby/babies, losing their freedom, and not being in control of their life anymore. They had it good/all their way for many years with growing up in a softer, hand-wringing, no child ever loses society, and this baby controlling them is a hard pill to swallow.

As I said, the world could do with a drop in the population of humans. That's a hill I will die on. I'm not changing my mind. Even if anyone does say 'oh but we neeeeeed lots of new people on the earth to support the old.' Rubbish. Most young people don't do that, and where do we draw the line? Have babies purely so we're not alone as an old person? Rubbish reason to keep over-populating the planet!

Also, as has been said, there is SO much more these days for women to do with their lives, and they no longer have to be this baby making handmaid that society expected some years ago. As someone said, women ultimately DO end up doing fucking everything when they choose to have a child and become a housewife/mother: all the childcare and housework and grunt work and life admin, along with a hit on their career. And many women don't want this life now.

Of course this isn't the case for ALL young women, but some yes. So some will have babies. Need to keep the human race going, but a drop in population will do the planet good!

It does vary though. It may be the 'norm' to have less children due a number of reasons but there are also cultures where a big family is favoured. Personal choice and reasoning for both, but yes the economic climate is a huge influence on this.

I think it depends on the individual, my dd has a career, husband and child just gone to school

I can't find it now but the posts re childcare being prohibitive I wondered how this fared in countries with better, cheaper provision and we're on par with Denmark. Which I assume is pretty good at cc. This is an interesting table, giving all figures plus Europe v other etc

data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?most_recent_value_desc=false

I was with you until you said that you would have to work full time. Yeah, that's what millions of women have always had to do.

I've always worked full time, only have 1 child and am absolutely fine with that. It's not a god given right to work part time or have several children. You cut your cloth accordingly. It's a very middle class expectation to want part time work and more than one child.

Agree OP but many with more than 2 DC as well.

If you lived in south Korea, depending on which province you lived in, a couple would get up to £50,000 for having 3 children

That's because they tend to be religious societies with little or no access to reliable contraception.

I think this is an important aspect too. If your partner is a bit lazy/shit or won't commit it's a big risk to have kids. I think the child maintenance situation in the UK is appalling, for instance. Also from what I see on MN families are so unwilling to help even in emergencies or ad hoc basis. We've become a self reliant country to an excessive degree in my view.

This is an interesting read - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-68402139

From my experience, it's the grandma effect no longer working, which is why I have not had more children. My parents were unable to help me with childcare with my baby, because they had mobility issues. I was isolated and alone looking after baby without family. My husband was amazing but had to work. I had a traumatic birth, the maternity services being dire. Staff are not properly trained. Buildings are not big enough, facilities and lighting and toilets and birthing equipment are not fit for purpose or available for a woman that's had a C-section to struggle down a corridor to use the toilet without any handle bars to get on and off the loo. I bled for months after birth. My father has since died relatively young from cancer and my mum has cancer. No grandparents to help, I am spending all my time helping them. There's no way I can have another baby, go through another birth like that and not have family support, even though I would choose to have another baby.

DH and I work full time and have a 4 yo. I couldn't have done FT hours when she was a baby, nursery fees took the majority of my earnings as it was and it was a constant struggle to stay on top of things. We work flexible hours, almost entirely from home. If we had to go into the office, 9-5, 5 days a week and didn't have the option to pop out for the school run and then use some strategic CBeebies, DD would be in wraparound care from 8:00am to 6pm, Mon-Fri. No afterschool clubs, no family time, a rushed dinner together and bed.

Yes, millions of single parents (and coupled parents) are living that life. It's completely reasonable not to choose it when you don't have to.

This. People had children to fulfil religious obligations and because women's access to contraception was either non-existent or poor (same as her ability to say 'no' and rape within marriage was legal until the 90s).

Women are indeed voting with their feet, or wombs in this case.

Sorry to hear that :(

We’ve also experienced terrible care and overrun hospital for our DM two years ago.

When I consider growing old here it sends a shiver down my spine.

i am actively looking into all options to retire elsewhere in Europe where healthcare might be better.

Cancer just keeps rising in this country https://www.england.nhs.uk/2024/10/nhs-diagnoses-thousands-more-cancers-as-cases-rise-by-5/#:~:text=The%20latest%20cancer%20registration%20statistics,2022%2C%20from%20167%2C917%20to%20180%2C877.

it’s scary, the U.K. is not a healthy place to live or exist.

So true. All of this. Unless you have shitloads of money to spend spend spend to alleviate the boredom it is quite boring at times. Love mine to bits but some of it’s boring it’s true.