To choose the local state comp over the high achieving private boys school?

[Seaofcake]

We have narrowed down our secondary school choices to two options and DH and I disagree about which one is best. DH is willing to pay for private and although it wouldn’t by any means be a drop in the ocean, we could do it.

We’ve gone round in circles with this decision. My pros and cons are below. Any advice would really be welcome.

State comp

Pros

• Mixed sex
• 10 minute drive in rush hour. He could walk or catch the bus eventually.
• Ofsted report is outstanding in all areas
• Enrichment programme
• Strict on behaviour
• 1.5 mile catchment, local kids
• Get to stay in area and younger DC can go to primary when ready.

Cons

• Less chance for trips and opportunities, will need to fight for them
• Some kids look rough when we’ve hung around during end of school day (but there is a good number of polite, decent kids too; it’s just very varied)
• Only 20% scored above 7 in English and Maths
• Strict but some rules are over the top

Private school

Pros

• Excellent GCSE and A level scores
• Excellent extra-curriculars
• Excellent and varied trips
• Well behaved, polite boys

Cons

• Boys school so limited social opportunities with girls. No contact with girls till 16
• It’s a city school with little greenery
• School finishes at 16:00 but coach gets back at 17:15 and that’s without after-school clubs
• Have to get the coach in the morning too and it leaves at 07:40 so it makes for a very long day
• If he does clubs, they finish at 17:30 but coach gets back at 18:40
• Forced to move?
• Can afford an extended semi in the city centre but it doesn’t have the greenery of our current location and we will lose the catchment of our local primary for younger DC who are due to join in a few years time

What would you do?

Have you looked at university cost - min loan is £4700 in England. Rent often £8/9000. Lots of parents earning £60000 between them are shocked to discover they are expected to fund thousands a year.

We've opted for private as we can comfortably afford it. But we live near plenty of private options and are city-centre based, and the schools are within walking distance.

We had an almost identical decision to make and opted for private: don’t be put off by the lack of contact with girls. There’s plenty of opportunity outside school. My boys have coped very well with the longer days. It can be a faff to get there every time there’s a parent teacher meeting, sports match, trip etc but that’s far outweighed by the numerous benefits.

The private school near us gets great GCSE and A level results, but that's because it's selective, so only the brightest of the bright are going in the first place. Make sure you're comparing like with like. A smart kid will do well regardless of school.

I work in a state school and both my DC go to the local state school. I assure you it is “cool” to do all those things- DD is a sports leader, has done D of E, participated in school shows, been on amazing school trips etc. Honestly sometimes I wonder what private school educated people actually think goes on in a state school!

Personally I think being able to walk to school and have local friends is so important. I am also vehemently anti selective schooling in all forms, due to the elitism and inequality it perpetuates and I think it’s important to demonstrate those values to my DC.

How do the state set the kids?

When DD started her school, they were streamed for key subjects (Maths, English, Science) from day 1. The head then changed and now we have set 1 and all other classes are mixed ability! My DD was set 2 so is now mixed ability in everything. This would impact my choice as the mixed classes can be easily disrupted unless your certain he would be set 1.

Hmm. Very dependent on the child, I think.

We tried our local comp (which sounds v similar to yours) for our eldest. Great teaching, extra curriculars and he had a circle of really nice friends. However, it was ultimately a disaster for him for two reasons.

The first was the strictness of the school. DS has ADHD, and although really bright, was always falling foul of the multitude of regulations - non-matching socks, forgetting a pencil or part of his PE kit, you name it. He was constantly in detentions, despite being otherwise well behaved and high achieving. This was pretty soul destroying for him.

The second was a contingent of rough kids at the school who made DS's life hell (DS stood out as being clever and a bit quirky). Bullying escalated to serious physical assault on a number of occasions, with police involved. The school were amazing at dealing with it, but it left our previously happy go-lucky DS badly affected in mental health terms.

We moved him to a private school which was a much better fit for him, and where he is now happy and achieving. So 100% the right decision for him.

DS2 will be going to secondary soon, and we will choose private for him for different reasons. He has mild SEN, is not massively academic and will benefit much more from smaller classes and more attention. We're also worried about potential for him to go off the rails if he falls in with the wrong crowd.

I know plenty of friends' kids who do well at our local comp. And a friend's child who struggles and is miserable in the "bottom" sets at a super-selective grammar school (which otherwise looks amazing on paper). So I would think carefully about your son's character and needs and your gut feeling on whether the schools you're looking at are right for him (and whether there are any other options if not). Lucky to have the choice!

I honestly think anyone who would choose state at the moment (as opposed to those who have no choice in the matter due to finances which obviously is most people) need their head testing.

State, purely on the basis of the travel. Who would inflict two hours of travel sickness on their child every day? Especially if they’re going to struggle academically.

I can comment about this from the perspective of a year 13 parent. An Indie selective was our closest secondary; the other choices would be an extra 30 mins away.

How oversubscribed is the city school? Is there scope to join in year 10 (check their GCSE's don't start in yr9) or sixth form? There seems to be plenty of movement in and out of DD's school (not just because people have relocated - quite a few because they weren't enjoying their other school either because of friendships or academics).

Would you move house to minimise the travel time? DD has plenty of friends who do travel on school buses, but she sees far more of her local friends. Admittedly she is musical and sporty, but she is usually at school until 5:30/6pm 3 nights/week and gets in for 8am one morning. Then there is Saturday sport. Then there are concerts etc.
It makes for a lot of driving backwards and forwards if you can't walk.

In terms of opportunities/trips/extra curricular there are plenty BUT the kids are encouraged to challenge themselves. Most of the "new arrivals" have played instruments/sports through non-school clubs.

For academics, that is going to boil down to individual schools. It might depend on the child's personality but it is no fun being a struggling student in a selective school (the other kids notice).

Would I change my state versus private decision if I was made to choose again? No, possibly not for the academics (local state schools have plenty of A* students). More for the amazing things DD has done and felt encouraged to try with a great bunch of like-minded kids that we probably wouldn't have considered organising ourselves.

Our termly extras bill is pretty hefty. With 20% VAT imminent, make sure you understand what it will mean for your prospective school.

Good luck

State.
Remember that there is bullying and drug use at private schools too. They're never perfect.

The private school is selling you an ideal. For a long time you will be inwvitably link the money and time going into this choice, with the happiness of your son. It's a contract of sorts and it will difficult not to buy entirely into the idea that the sacrifices will inevitably pay off.
But this puts pressure on your child. As time goes on he and you will have very little wiggle room when there are issues. There are always some issues.
Also I think when your child is 11 you can have a rosy tinted vision of the person you want them to become., and how best to facilitate this.

Children tend to surprise us on every level. What we thought would be best for them when they are 11 bears no resemblance to the dreams we have for them as they get older.

My son went to a excellent mixed sex comprehensive and did well there. Before that a high achieving single sex state school did less well for him.
I dread to think how a private single sex school would have dealt with him
I think he wouldn't have thrived there especially as he went through a very don't care patch which wouldn't have endeared him to the homework police.

My two DC are at private, but it’s a 10 min walk for them and the local, state secondary schools are shockingly poor. If you have a good, local state school I’d choose that. The costs of private are getting ridiculous, not just the VAT but you need to budget for 10% fee inflation each year which may be even higher with the additional employer NI contributions schools will need to pay, plus additional payments for teachers pension contributions. A one hour journey seems tough. You could always look to move him to private for sixth form.

Some years ago now, I had input into my company’s graduate recruitment. We chose accomplished state school pupils over identical private every time. I suspect universities may be similar - I know my college was very keen to maintain the 50/50 state private ratio they had. So something to factor in.

No good to generalize like that. Some state comp are good, others not. Just like private schools. Mine is in private but it's close by, mixed and the state is awful. Whereas in OP's case with a long journey to a single sex private school when she has a good state school with her son's friends going I would definitely choose state.

I've done both. If the state school is a good one I would choose it every time now. A single-sex private school is so far removed from normal life that your child will struggle not to be a weirdo for the rest of his life. The shortcomings of state schools rub the corners off them. The highly structured environment of private school leaves them a bit helpless in the face of real life situations that don't follow the rules. That's my experience anyway. My state educated kids are far more rounded and resilient than my privately educated ones. Educational outcomes were very similar (state was a bit better actually).

The long commute clinches it for me. Your DH is following a long line of authoritarian fathers when he says your DS will "get used to" being car sick - how mean.

Also: if the state school doesn't work out you can always transfer to private, whereas if the private school/two hours a day of feeling on the brink of vomiting doesn't work out, an outstanding state school will undoubtedly be full.

Has he actually got an offer from the private school already? That's v early - most don't offer until Feb in Y6.

I agree with the poster who said independent education is about more than the grades. If he gets an offer then he's good enough to go and it doesn't matter where he would sit in the range of kids they take.

What did my kids get out of private education? They got dedicated specialist teachers with a real passion for their subjects. A lot of clubs were at lunch time and there was always something for everyone. DS was always going to be an engineer and got some amazing engineering related clubs right from age 11. When he asked questions, teachers were happy to answer them at break time.

Mine both had long days and coach journeys - but both loved their schools and the commute just became something they did. They just get used to it.

A lot of the answers on here are "state but tutor straight away" - which sounds rather sad. Either a school provides a decent education or it doesn't.

Of course there will always be badly behaved kids and academic superstars in both systems. But anecdotal evidence is not he key here. The key is the right school for your ds. Go and look round them both - and when you have both offers you'll be in a position to make the right decision for him.

Are you saying you’d have to sell your house and buy something cheaper in able to afford this? In that case you can’t afford it!

Regarding your cons, the travel time eluded definitely be a negative and as for excellent and varied trips, surely you’d have more money to provide those yourself with no school fees to pay. Is the private school selective; In terms of GCSE, these correlate very strongly to the ability of the children on intake.

Private. The only pro about the comp is the distance imo... the rest don't sound very appealing to me. The private school sounds much better and it's honestly not a problem that he won't be in a mixed school.

Curious to know how many people responding have experience of both private and state systems, because usually on these threads people's positions are very polarised based on their own limited experiences and choices.

For instance, why the assumption that a good state comp (not a failing one obviously) won't have lunchtime and after school clubs, or engaged staff willing to spend extra time?

My state educated kids were given extracurricular options to do extra languages including Mandarin and BSL, the whole range of musical instruments, lots of tech/engineering type stuff, chess, sports, all the arts type stuff you can imagine, not to mention the highly popular Doctor Who club. And they had teachers who gave extra sessions for the maths olympiad, the Southampton Uni cipher challenge, revision or project-based sessions, or just took time to talk through interesting points that had come up in the lesson or been asked about. Plus lots of stuff I don't know about because my particular kids weren't into it, I expect. And trips. And competitions between schools. And extracurricular weeks when the whole school tried out things that aren't on the regular curriculum.

And what I also found (and was surprised by) was that because facilities or options are often more limited, state schools are usually more closely linked to other schools or organisations in the community to widen the range of what they can offer, whereas private schools are often very insular and protective of what they offer and disparaging about what they don't. And being involved in community-linked activities, particularly local to where you live and where your friends live, is really good for children socially, gives them a sense of belonging and enables them to make friends with local kids in different schools. (Another reason not to commute an hour imo, as friends will all go off indifferent directions at the end of the day.)

I just think sometimes there's a strong imperative to believe that you spent all your money on private education because state schools are all cesspits of mediocrity and deprivation, but many of them really aren't.

Private all the way
I say this from my own experience
I went to a state school
Out of my year group, only 5 people graduated from uni
The rest , on benefits.
And
Let me tell you
The people you hang out with, influence you hugely.
The fact that knowing the answer and being bright resulted in heavy bullying.
No clubs
Literally my graphic teacher took me to aside and said to me, I need only 5 people to get a pass at gcse and I know you will pass.

The teachers don't encourage anything. You are bright and they won't push. You want an A* in a subject and they will say... We are happy with a c.

No clubs. No languages.
And the students have zero ambition. More fixated on bullying geeks.

Now my husband and went to an amazing state school where everyone pretty much graduated and some did PhDs in Oxford or Cambridge.

My secondary school circle, let's just say they all have kids that are 16 and I'm 33.

So, yes, depends on the area. If it's an affluent area then yes it's fine as kids will want to do well.
If the area is full of drug addicts and unemployment then do not be surprised if your son wants that life too.

And that GCSE rate is appalling imho.

For me, private

I went to an utterly shit comp (not that I'm saying this one would be!) and I'd have loved to go private.

It's the networking/crowd they end up in (peers are huge at this age), value given to education and the teachers will probably be better.

I went to the school hididi went to, clearly!

State and you will have money for as many trips as you like (ours did loads of great trips).

imo boys benefit from being in a mixed environment for many reasons.

if it doesn’t suit it’s easier to move to private than the other way round

I would start at state and keep the private
option up your sleeve if necessary. But then both mine have thrived at state and I get horribly car sick - a daily two hour round trip sounds like hell to me. Dh had a long bus ride to his school and absolutely hated it and vowed never to put ours through it ours can walk to school.