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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to wonder why it's still considered ok to use terms that are offensive to disabled people?

291 replies

wannaBe · 24/04/2008 14:18

because imo it isn't.

someone used the word "mong" on a thread today, and although they were pulled up by a couple of posters, that's it.

if it was a racist term it wouldn't be tolerated. so why any other offensive term? why?

And why do people still feel the need to use these terms?

OP posts:
zubin · 26/04/2008 13:09

I do not have a disabled child nor do I have a disability (and actually haven't read all the posts) but I do work for a charity supporting people with ld and I think the tolerance to using offensive terms is reflective of societies attitude to pwld's in general. We may try and hide it better than we used to do but we still don't make it possible for adults with ld to properly intergrate within our communities. In the county where I live there is only one changing places toilet facilty meaning people with pmld are having to lay on public toilet floors when they need to be changed. we need to change these ignorant attitudes and ensure that people with learning disabilties are viewed with the dignity and respect they deserve and are seen as equals in society who deserve not to be referred to using any sort of negative term

yurt1 · 26/04/2008 13:11

Exactly zubin. Exactly.

I think pwlds are the 'bottom of the pile' in society. And prejudice is so ingrained people don't even realise the prejudice they carry (I'm judging that from the things people have said directly to me about ds1- which just shouts volumes about their attitudes towards pwlds and they don't even know they've said anything!).

silverfrog · 26/04/2008 13:12

agree with recent posts e: societies attitude towards acceptance.

when i did say something in the playground (and I have had to ask parents to stop their children more than once - same children/parents) the response I usually get is "oh, they're just joking around. they're all playing together"

err, call me oversensitive, but unless someone is fully in on/participating in the joke (which dd1 is not capable of) then surely there is an element of bullying?

RustyBear · 26/04/2008 13:40

Greyriverside - you said -"The intent was to refer to a state then that has nothing to do with a particuler group. It's made by someone who is not in that group in conversation with someone else who is not in that group with no intention of refering to that group."

But it wasn't 'in conversation with someone else who is not in that group', it was on a public forum and therefore 'in conversation' with every member of that forum,some of whom are in that group (or at least their children are)

Janni · 26/04/2008 13:43

I'm 43 and had never heard the term 'mong out' until I read it on MN. Then I remembered that when I was a kid it was perfectly OK to refer to Downs Syndrome as mongolism but of course now, that's extrememly offensive. Same with the word 'spastic'. When I was a child, that's the word you used for cerebral palsy - there was even The Spastics Society, whereas today it's considered offensive.

It would not surprise me if people a lot younger than I am used derivatives of 'mongol' or 'spastic' because they had never heard them used as descriptions of people with disabilities and would therefore not understand their offensiveness.

Of course we must not use them on here but let's go down the education rather than the condemnation route.

zippitippitoes · 26/04/2008 13:49

ive only read a few bits of this thread

i find it depressing

there are students at college with LD and a friedn on my course was telling me the other day that students on the course were making fun and these are intelligent adults

i just dont understand

even the staff seem to condone it

what kind of opportunities are being offered when these students are treated so craply in the situation that is supposed to support them

and in discrimination generally i have my eyes opened to the poor quality of teaching with regards to discrimination by tutors in further education it is appalling on a daily basis i witness jibes and comments on age, weight, sex, reading and learning difficulties, bullying, homophobic remarks etc etc and staff do it themselves

it is incredible

i get it for my age...from tutors

they make so called funny remarks

soapbox · 26/04/2008 13:59

As long as the world is full of ignorant, under educated, stupid people who assert their rights to free speech (along with none of the associated responsibilities) then sadly offensive words will continue to be used.

But of course it is because the rest of us are all too PC!

PosieParker · 26/04/2008 14:01

Wouldn't it be nice if people could trying walk in the shoes of another for a day?

eidsvold · 26/04/2008 14:12

zippi - you reminded me of a couple of experiences I had whilst teaching in the UK. When I went back to teaching dd1 was 1 and I had a pic of her over my desk - the kids could all see it. I made no big deal about her having special needs but neither did I hide it.

IN my year 7 class - I had a number of children who had family members and a few with mild intellectual impairment in a particular class. They were horrid to each other - calling each other derogatory names etc. I finally had enough and so off the cuff I did a lesson - it went like this.

I took down the pic of dd1 and asked them to describe what they say. They told me her hair colour, they told me her shirt colour, eye colour, jeans colour and described the pose she was in. Not one child mentioned she had down syndrome. I then told them what they did not describe.... that she had down syndrome - talked a little of what it meant in real terms for dd1 - very simply. I wonder whether none of these children had ever come across a child with ds.

Anyway I then went on and talked about her cardiac surgery - talking about how little dd1 was - how small her heart was and how she had a huge scar on her chest that you could not see. I talked about what the docs did and how that saved her life. I then talked about how if you can't see it - does not mean it is there. We talked about how some people with special needs - perhaps like a physical impairment are easy to see but for others it can be a hidden impairment like dd1's scar.

I told them that the way they were teasing and speaking about each other was unacceptable. If I did not have a pic up about dd1 they would not know about her - as they may not know about others in the class. That it was not appropriate to use the words they were using to insult and make fun of each other. We talked about how hurtful those words are to people like dd1 and their families and friends. We talked about where those words came from.

At the end of the lesson, I told them how proud I was of their listening and paying attention to everything that was said and how I hoped I would never ever hear those words used again. Those kids went off to other classes and told other kids about our lesson and mrs x's daughter and I am told they even on a couple of occasions challenged other kids who were being verbally abusive and mean. If these kids can get it - why can't adults.

My second experience was not a pleasant one but with a good outcome. I had a particularly challenging year nine class - read mainly boys with surging testosterone and a lot to prove - including the kids who just got on with work etc and did their best. They too were teasing each other and calling each other things like spaz, retard, special in a derogatory tone and finally one shouted across the room - no you have up syndrome to which the kid shouted - no down syndrome and they all fell about laughing. I had been unable to get a word in edgewise until this point.

I just bellowed at them to shut up! ( not professional but bloody effective.) the rest of the kids who had not joined in this almost hit the ceiling from shock. The boys who were being horrible and inappropriate just stopped dead. They almost gagged on their laughing. I then very calmly reminded them that those words were unacceptable and in case they had forgotten I had a child with down syndrome. I then just sat at my desk in silent fury - I did not trust myself to say anymore. They realised they had gone too far and that they needed to be quiet before volcano mrs x erupted.

The shame of the situation - the kid who made the final joke laughing about ds and the other terms was one of the best kids in the class but in a misguided attempt to fit in with the so called 'cool' kids did this. He was very bright and yet he felt this was okay. Until he saw my face and realised it had gone too far.

he came to apologise after class and we talked about words again and the power they have. We also talked about how he knew very little about all the people in the class and how what was being said could have been offensive to any number of people there.

The next day when I was calmer - we had a discussion about the words that were used and why they were unacceptable - the history of the words etc. Sadly a lot of these kids would have come from homes and family situations where this sort of terminology was commonplace.

I am not sure I reached some of the harder kids but just for one brief moment they stopped and thought about their behaviour and certainly in my presence never spoke like that again.

As I said before - kids get it; why is it so hard for adults.

zippitippitoes · 26/04/2008 14:17

eidsvold

i dont at all get why adults are like this

it seems it is endemic in our culture

if you do say anything then people come up with these spurious and absurd pc arguments or get over yourself what is it to you type thing

makes me weep

i do have a sense of humour

yep i say silly things sometimes

but these things are just very wrong

SNoraWotzThat · 26/04/2008 14:22

eidsvold
thank you for sharing that,. How true the sentiment is that if children can understand why can't adults.

zubin · 26/04/2008 14:31

The pc issue is ridiculous - and yes it is endemic in our culture - pwlds are still being deprived of basic respect. In the course of my job the amount of times I have heard so called professionals depriving pwld's of basic rights - you can;t have a drink it's not drink time, we lock her clothes away because she messes them up, from a doctor when talking about giving a man with pmld a brain scan 'of course you do lose a few brain cells when you have this done and let's face it he can't afford to lose any' and from a doctors receptionist - the doctor doesn't have time to see people like her. I understand that the term wasn't meant in an offensive way but the fact offensive terms are still readily used is reflective of societies general attitude. Part of my job is to try and work towards improving societies attitudes to pwld's and ensuring they are given equal status in society if anyone has any ideas how that can be achieved they would be gratefully received

Janni · 26/04/2008 14:42

I think you only need to look at what is valued in our culture to understand why many adults are unkind and insensitive to people with disabilities. I'm not at all surprised by it and I think it will get worse, not better, the more we as a society strive for perfection - eternal youth, abortion being offered for conditions like a cleft palate,
celeb style and glamour being feted whereever you look etc etc

PosieParker · 26/04/2008 14:43

abortion being offered for cleft pallet, how would that even happen??

PosieParker · 26/04/2008 14:44

You don;t need to answer I just googled it, Oh my god.

Unfitmother · 26/04/2008 14:48

Which of course is legal past 24 weeks, up to birth in fact.

ancientmiddleagedmum · 26/04/2008 14:53

They say that the true test of how civilised a society is, is how well we treat those who are most in need. By that token, some parents are encouraging their children to behave no better than animals (actually worse, I never met an animal taking the piss out of or bullying another animal for being a little different). Zubin, you sound like you are doing more than most to improve attitudes and I think the only answer is education, and challenging ignorant people who use terms like mong, then hide behind fatuous arguments like "oh dear, you can't say anything nowadays, we've all gone mad and are too pc." This ignorant argument comes from the kind of person who would still use the N word on race, if they weren't as much of a coward as a bigot.

PosieParker · 26/04/2008 15:04

I am always amazed when things happen that I can't understand, I really thought Janni was posting something ridiculous.... I am astounded that things like this happen and I'm very pro choice but think the limit should be brought forward and exceptions should be quite extreme. I am in shock.

Unfitmother · 26/04/2008 15:07

I'm pro-choice too but feel that current legislation de-values the worth of a 'disabled' person's life.

mshadowsisfab · 26/04/2008 18:24

have been out for the day so just catching up with mn.
as for being told to get a grip. ffs.

you dd has cp and because of that people assume she is lackinging in iteligence,
well compared to some of the people on this thread she should be in mensa.
I can not believe after being told why a word is bad people still try to make excuses.
riven I think you are right there are some people who don't like disabled people.
I think they are scared by disability.

sarah293 · 26/04/2008 18:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

theheadgirl · 26/04/2008 18:57

Like LottieJ and others, I've contacted MN about the use of the M word - as follows:

"Is it true that use of the word "mong" is considered acceptable by the moderators at mumsnet? Really? You wouldn't leave the word "nigger" I'm sure. Yet to consider it acceptable to use the word "mong" to describe slothful, inactive behaviour is such an insult to people with Down Syndrome, where of course the word derives from. You MUST see how unacceptable this word is, even, as in the case of the poster who used it, no direct negative feeling towards those with LD was meant. My own DD3 has DS. I would not tolerate anyone reverting back to the term a "mongol" to describe her diagnosis. It is a nasty vile label, that reduces her to some "other being", it denies her humanity and individuality, and it, and any derivative of it, should be unacceptable."

I really would love to hear how they justify the use of this word, and can't recall feeling so angry as I do now, to think that they've already had it reported, yet still think its ok to leave the word!

Blondilocks · 26/04/2008 19:02

I've only ever heard that word used as meaning "chill out" (I guess in the same way the Amazon link means).

Have never heard it used in any other way so I think it's a bit harsh to condemn everyone who uses it.

mshadowsisfab · 26/04/2008 19:03

oh ffs another one.
what is it with people.

theheadgirl · 26/04/2008 19:05

Well there was a gap in your knowledge blondilocks - and now you DO know, would you use it?
And if you had always known where its derived from, and it was related to your child would you consider it acceptable?
I am not condeming the person who originally used the word. They presumably didn't know.
I condemn MN for allowing an offensive word to remain.