To think gentle parenting is actually permissive

[theedgeoftheforest]

Even though those who favour it are very insistent it isn’t - well, it is, isn’t it?

Its all ‘they have no impulse control’ (they do) ‘you’re expecting too much’ (you’re not) ‘the teachers reward and sanction, complain to the school’ (nonsense.)

I know post after post will insist that gentle parenting does have boundaries and to be fair I see gentle parents talk a lot about boundaries but they don’t seem to have a clue how to implement them and their kids run rings round them.

@doodleschnoodle do your children never just fixate on the cupcake? And what about in the hitting example when all the other parents judge you for not saying 'no, stop doing that'.

I would say I have raised my dc in a gentle but authoritative way. I would absolutely not tolerate either my DC hitting someone else, or someone else hitting my DC, and frankly if that kid’s parent didn’t intervene then I would, very sternly, and I would make it abundantly clear that nobody hits anyone else. That’s possible without shouting and with a minimum of physical intervention (you might have to physically remove one of the children but a sharp vocal tone might be enough to make them stop). And then reparations or separation, and then we all move on: no rehearsing the incident or shaming for the behaviour, but hopefully the boundary enforced and explained.

Sorry not read the full thread.

Gentle parenting is not by its nature permissive but I find many of the people who think they're doing it, are just permissive and non confrontational.

I've seen some amazing kids turned into tyrants by failed gentle parenting. I don't think the issue is with gentle parenting as a concept. I also think as a phrase it's an easy out for conflict avoidant people who are parents.

But saying 'I won't let you hit' and holding their arms is doing exactly that? Just with perhaps different words than some other people might be used to, but it's the same sentiment. I've said that I can't let the behaviour continue and have physically prevented it.

I don't parent based on what other parents might think of me, generally. But if a child hit my child and their parent immediately intervened and said/did the above and then removed them if it continued, I would feel like that was a suitable intervention. I don't feel like kids need to be shouted at to tick off some sort of discipline box so other people can see you're being a good parent.

If one of my kids really is fixated on the cupcake and won't be distracted or move on, then I'll just remove them from the situation. I won't give them the cupcake when I've laid down that boundary. But it would be in a 'I can see you're really upset about the cupcake. I'm going to take you over there so you can calm down' way. Or if it's really intense, 'You're having a tough time with the cupcake. I think it might be time to go home.'

You can't avoid every tantrum, nor is that that a desirable thing anyway I think. Sometimes they will be frustrated and angry and cry and scream whatever you do and you just have to ride it out.

That’s just crap parenting though. Yesterday at soft play, I saw an about 2 smack a child of a similar age. His dad laughed and literally said ‘boys will be boys eh? They all do it’. About 20 minutes later he was shouting at him about 6 year old that he was having no tablet for the weekend, because the kid had knocked over his slush. He wasn’t gentle parenting when he let his child hit another, he wasn’t parenting at all.

Are there really so many parents who sign up to a specific 'parenting philosophy'? I have read a few parenting books but basically I do what feels right/works.

Ineffectual parenting is not the exclusive domain of 'gentle' parenting. There are plenty of poor parents who aren't 'gentle' at all, but a combination of neglectful, uninterested, unengaged, whatever. Perhaps parents like that feel like attaching themselves to a 'movement' of some sort is justification. I remember reading an article by someone who claimed to be a free range parent, but when I read further it turned out she was just neglectful and in denial. But she'd justified it to herself by attaching a school of thought to it, as if that made her actions more acceptable.

Anyway as I said earlier, I wouldn't call myself a GP particularly, although a lot of what I do does come from that school of thought. I prefer to call it respectful parenting as I think that encompasses the ethos more. And god knows I don't always manage it. I'm writing this while having a break in our bedroom as DD1 has been winding me up all day with little things and I eventually lost my shit and shouted at her for something fairly minor but it was the last straw. So I am calming down and will go apologise and explain in a bit!

I practice gentle parenting and no way is it permissive. We have excellent boundiaries, and while my children are very normal children who can be arseholes occasionally at home, they are always complimented on their behaviour by teachers, sports coaches and rsndom strangers. If they have no boundaries and are permissive parenting, they're doing gente parentjng wrong.

For us, its that there are no punishments but natural consequences to behaviour. Didn't do your homework and get a detention? Well, that's the consequence. Didn't tidy your bedroom? Well its too messy for your friends to see so they can't come round. Didn't pick up your shin pads and the dog chewed them? You can't go to football until they've been replaced with your pocket money etc.

I also look at WHY they're acting out if they do. Are they tired? Hungry? Worried? Angry? Let's get the root issue sorted. Let's talk about it and come up with a solution together.

This means i have four kids who are generally well behaved at home, little angels when out, can self regulate, are in touch with their emotions and feelings, respectful, polite and have good boundaries (for themselves and for other people)

@doodleschnoodle But saying 'I won't let you hit' and holding their arms is doing exactly that? Just with perhaps different words than some other people might be used to, but it's the same sentiment. I've said that I can't let the behaviour continue and have physically prevented it.

Yes, agreed. This is what I understand gentle/respectful parenting to be, contrasted with the wild swing between authoritarian and permissive parenting described above (the guy not intervening to stop his kid hitting, but imposing a massive sanction for a small accident). You haven’t stomped in yelling and shaken your kid or smacked them, you haven’t imposed a sanction out of the blue, you’ve essentially behaved as if the child is a person with feelings and capabilities to understand natural consequences and that behaviour impacts on other people.

I do think posters on parenting forums often use the two interchangably. I'm a bit unsure in which way the researchers were using it - they seemed to conflate parent-directed actions with boundary enforcement.

Echoing what others are saying.

You're confusing it with permissive parenting.

We are as gentle as we can be. So maybe other gentle parents would think we're not gentle.

We've never really punished, never shouted etc.

Half of that is down to having quite gentle kids.

BUT if they misbehave they are in no doubt what they've done wrong, what they could have done instead and will apologise/fix their mistake.

Doesn't mean we don't have difficult conversations etc.

Works for us.

I think the problem is that people decide they are doing a particular type of parenting before they have children, and stick doggedly to it. There are children who would be angels no matter what way you parent them. And there are kids who will not respond to the more subtle, reason based way of gentle parenting. I'm thinking about the children I know with very poor impulse control. They seem to react to 'no' much better than 'well the reason we do this is because...' parent droning on when all they can hear in their head is THROW THE APPLE JUICE.
I have one child with ADHD who likes absolutes, she likes firm yes and no answers. Gentle parenting would not work for her. If I explain things too deeply she gets caught up on the grey areas and nuances. It's too unclear.

Also there are loads of things with no natural consequences, what happens then??

Never punished??? What happens if they grab a toy off another child, don’t put their shoes on when you have two minutes left before needing to leave the house, refuse to stay in bed etc?

If you do ACTUAL gentle parenting, it's really, really hard work. You have to be willing to follow through on logical consequences and allow natural consequences to play out, even when they make life miserable for you as well as your kid. You have to be ready to receive and validate every emotion and pretend that you're not irritated that they are acting like the world ended because they got the wrong colour straw. You have to give loads and loads of yourself and your time to your child to teach them emotional intelligence and regulation.

The vast majority of people who want to be gentle parents can't. They don't have the time, the energy or the completely even temperament required. I definitely don't. So they take the soft bit of gentle parenting- i.e. no punishments and giving the child freedom of expression- and leave out the hard part. That's permissive parenting.

Oh and another thing...

A large proportion of parents (most? or a significant and very visible minority?) just aren't very good. The style of parenting they are choosing to pin their colours to is irrelevant, they would be quite rubbish regardless. This generation is the one where everyone calls themselves a "gentle parent", some of them are good parents, some of them are not good parents.

@MrsSunshine2b I think that's unfair. A lot of parents are time poor. MH issues are also increased ten fold since the pandemic. I would say the generation before were not better parents but perhaps less stressed. My in laws often comment that I 'do' more with mine than they or their parents ever did, not just activities but actually sitting and playing with them, cooking with them, taking an interest in their interests. That was not common before.

I rarely punish. In your first example I would tell them to give it back and if they didn't then I would give it back for them with a stern 'no snatching'. If they don't put their shoes on then I would do it for them and probably tell them off for wasting my time and not listening. The third example I would probably just keep returning them to their room super nanny style, I don't think this is something I have ever had to deal with though.
I only really use punishments for aggressive behaviour.

Yes, I think it's possible we are better than previous generations in a lot of ways. We have access to more information and are better educated, and we see children in a different way and more worthy of respect. Parents are no longer discouraged from showing their children affection.

But I think the fact remains that parenting is really hard and many people are just not equipped for it. Not necessarily their fault. And not as if I'm perfect either.

For us, its that there are no punishments but natural consequences to behaviour. Didn't do your homework and get a detention? Well, that's the consequence.

Are you being deliberately sarcastic or are you very confused about what punishment means...? A detention is the most classic example of a punishment. Nothing "natural" about it

I’m mainly sceptical of gentle parenting advocates because they also tend to identify as practicing “attachment parenting” which is not A Thing in the way that it has been made into A Thing. It is not rooted in attachment theory at all, despite the hyperbolic claims about how beneficial babywearing/breastfeeding/co-sleeping etc is for the emotional development of your child, and was actually developed by an Evangelical Christian man whose primary motivation was to keep women firmly in the home and out of the workplace.

Unless they are telling you they think it is harmful you are projecting. There are plenty of parenting things I do because I think they suit me/ my child/ my family without judging others for doing something different.

Well sure yes you can also judge parenting that involves other children/ people getting harmed but I’d say in that case it should be judging of that specific parent and their reaction rather than anyone else who describes their overall parenting in roughly the same way, but you’ve not actually witnessed how they’d deal with that.

Some authoritative parents may smack, I judge smacking (illegal here anyway) but not authoritative parenting. I don’t actually have a parenting “style” , if I had to pick I probably try mostly to be gentle with a bit of authoritative but I don’t really think of it in those terms. I really do hate judgemental parenting though.

Yes, I have been told “xxx type of parenting actively harms children which is why I do yyy”

IME particularly in circles where gentle parenting leans into permissive 🫣. But I have heard it from others as well.

I agree, and no, I'm not confusing gentle with lazy.
A friend's toddler grabbed two glass ornaments in my house and started bashing them together. Initially, yes, his mother did nothing so you could think, "Hmm, lazy." However, I then called out "They're made of glass!" because you know, if he keeps this up, any second they're going to smash and shred his fingers (and also cost me two ornaments).
On hearing me call out and seeing my face, some kind of penny drops with my friend. Not with enough urgency to make her do the right thing and take them from him or say "No, that's dangerous, stop please!", but she makes an attempt.
She says "Darling, I don't think curtaintwitcher appreciates you playing with her ornaments." So not a lazy response, because she engaged, she tried in her 'gentle' way to get him to stop. She wasn't being 'lazy', she didn't ignore, it's just that by the time she's finished saying her lovely passive words, he could have really hurt himself. As it happened he carried on bashing them and I had to tell her explicitly to take them from him.
When your child and other people's property are at risk you really need to get over your fear of upsetting that child.