To think gentle parenting is actually permissive

[theedgeoftheforest]

Even though those who favour it are very insistent it isn’t - well, it is, isn’t it?

Its all ‘they have no impulse control’ (they do) ‘you’re expecting too much’ (you’re not) ‘the teachers reward and sanction, complain to the school’ (nonsense.)

I know post after post will insist that gentle parenting does have boundaries and to be fair I see gentle parents talk a lot about boundaries but they don’t seem to have a clue how to implement them and their kids run rings round them.

I haven’t heard of no childcare being a gentle parenting thing?

Nurseries I have seen seem to follow a “gentle parent” type approach anyway, no hitting children, no shouting at children, no time outs, lots of autonomy, choices and natural consequences,

Thank you for sharing the study, it was really interesting to read. I thought that self-identified gentle parents, in practice, likely aren't hugely different from parents who do not choose that term and the study seems to reflect that, aside from the fact that it picked up that those gentle parents are very keen to do things differently from their own parents and feel more insecure about their own parenting compared with parents who don't identify with the term gentle.

Also thought it was really interesting the way it picked up on gentle parents' use of the term boundaries - I have noticed this as a reactionary thing almost, just observation of parenting forums particularly between the toddler years of my children born 2008 (gentle parenting wasn't quite a term, but the concept of non-punitive, emotion accepting parenting was there, and it was generally ridiculed and seen with a lot of scepticism - I loved it and was heavily into the theory at this time) and 2018/2021 (what we used to call gentle parenting is now the prevailing style and just called parenting, the term gentle parenting is much more mainstream with people frequently expressing guilt that they "should" be doing gentle parenting but it isn't working, the definition of gentle parenting seems to have expanded over a wider area, some of the self-identified gentle parenting content is now much more extreme and prescriptive).

It seems to me that at some point between gentle parenting being seen as a weird, niche, hippy thing and being seen as a mainstream, normal, preferable thing to do, there was some kind of virtual wrestling match over whether or not gentle parenting involved holding boundaries, since it attempts to avoid punitive responses, to the point that the gentle parent identity now has a very strong sense that yes, there MUST be boundaries, but there is not always a good individual sense of how that actually works in practice.

I was surprised though to see the study refer to this as novel - I guess this is a difference between terms used in academic research vs forum discussions or parenting books, but I thought boundaries have been considered important in parenting for a very long time. Was that term not used in Baumrind's original research? Or does it mean that parents in general don't usually emphasise their use of boundaries, but gentle parents do? (And I so want to assemble a group of gentle parents from 2013 and compare their use of language around boundaries to the 2023 parents now!)

I think there is another, separate but related shift in parenting approaches away from top-down/parent-directed, hierarchical behaviourist approaches towards more bottom-up/collaborative or democratic approaches based in developmental or neurobiological awareness. Those approaches mainly seemed to originate in approaches used with children with challenging behaviours e.g. ASD, ADHD, ODD, adopted children, traumatised children, and seem to have research-backed support in these situations - but are gaining popularity within the mainstream. I think these are distinct from "gentle parenting" which is much wider and seems to overlap both with aspects of these approaches but also with behaviourism, even though some proponents of gentle parenting reject behaviourism. But I also don't think they fit into the categories, or if they do then the closest one is likely permissive - but it's not really the same as "just letting kids walk all over you" - it's just that's really the only way you can code it if you're starting with the assumption that parents ought to be directive and hierarchical.

Gentle parenting doesn't mean it allows a child to overstep boundaries for their own convenience nor does it mean that a child can behave freely to avoid upset at the cost of someone else's boundaries. Gentle parenting is working together with your child by setting expectations, hearing them, listening to them and explaining to them and being hands on. I see it as a way to go inside their world and being the wiser one by guiding them in their own dimension so they can understand. But some do take the piss with it by performing it.

My mother had a go at a parent at Heathrow airport back from holiday as the family in front was waiting for her toddler to run back to the family. They were hogging the queue by gently speaking to their toddler who was causing havoc by the e gates but also not allowing a huge queue behind them to move around the belt barriers in the passport border queue in the family area. My mum in the end had a go at the parent to either get out of the queue and not disrupt the flow or go and collect her daughter and put her in reins like normal parents do and it was not the time and place to set such a small child free. The parents went bright red and were about to respond to my mother until a member of staff came and told them off too to go and collect their toddler. They were literally standing there talking to her trying to convince a 2 year old "to make the right choice" fucking twats.

@BertieBotts that's an interesting questions about boundaries. I don't think she does use the word in her research from what I can remember but I would have to go back and check! She definitely talks about high expectations and discipline. Ummm...

There are also some studies that show best outcomes with permissive parenting.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19435170/

This isn't the only one but I think it was one of the first. There are actually a fair few now.

I think this study used a definition of permissive parenting that we would probably think of as quite similar to modern day gentle parenting.

It will also depend on what outcomes we are measuring. I think permissive parenting has always been associated with some positive outcomes (creativity, curiosity, self assuredness) in research but overall authoritative has been shown to be the 'best' as we have put a higher value on the positive effects of authoritative parenting.

I think as a society we are now putting less value on 'obedience' in children. It is a word that I rarely hear used these days and I think when research moves away from measuring obedience as one of the outcomes then we might see more studies where "permissive' parenting comes out on top.

Are we mixing up the word "rules" and the word "boundaries" here?

Gentle parenting (I hate the term btw) is a great method that includes boundaries and consequences but is delivered in a way that doesn't involve shouting/threatening/punishing. Most of us do it to some degree or another. It's a tricky technique to use constantly and relies somewhat on having a fairly easy going child (and parents) to be totally successful .

Permissive parenting is allowing a child to get away with poor behaviours and not addressing it. Not having good boundaries in place.

Some parents use the term gentle parenting when they are actually doing permissive parenting .

The majority of parents do a mixture of gentle , permissive and authoritative parenting.

The results vary hugely, there are a lot of strong willed and Sen kids who don't respond to typical parenting techniques which can be very challenging for parents.

Forward facing again has nothing to do with gentle parenting? Yes it is safer to rear face especially under 4 but and that is a parenting decision but there’s nothing that’s not “gentle” about forward facing.

And BTW I wouldn’t say I follow full “gentle parenting” even if that is what I did aspire to when my child was born but I do try hard to follow “no judgement” parenting other than for certain things like smacking which I see as abuse. I feel pretty much every parenting decision is judged these days and we all have different ways of doing things, who knows which is right or wrong. Whereas you seem to think “the gentle parenting community” will judge you for sleep training and forward facing and using a nursery which is all absolutely your decision to do as a parent, whereas you judge all gentle parents as being permissive. Can’t we just let people parent how they want as long as they are not harming their children.

Having read the full thread, I think we do a mix of permissive, gentle and authorative parenting. It's not unlike how I was parented myself tbh. A toddler whining for a biscuit, I'd just give the biscuit then adjust in their diet for that later in the day and not rebuy those particularly nice biscuits. We only have rich tea in the house for that reason. Definitely do naughty step and it works very well for us. We basically never shout and definititly would apologise to the kids if I ever lost my temper. Most families we see are much like this with very lovely, well behaved, happy children.

Can’t we just let people parent how they want as long as they are not harming their children.

I think the reason people get so het up about parenting is that if you buy into a particular theory or style, it’s because you see it as better for various reasons, and then by inference those people see the other ways (cry-it-out, for example) as being actively harmful rather than neutral.

Can’t we just let people parent how they want as long as they are not harming their children.

It's not just about your own child coming to harm. Parents have a duty to prevent their child from hurting other children. IME this is the main situation where Gentle Parenting (as generally pushed) fails. When a Gently Parented child (often boy) hits or pushes another child, the parent shrugs it off with "that's developmentally expected" or have ineffectual chats about feelings and other children come to harm. We've all come across That Child. If you don't know what I'm talking about, it may be your child.

Of course, of course, not True gentle parenting etc

Yanbu. Kids do needs hugs and love etc but they also need a firm telling off when they bite their sister, moan constantly, are rude or spoilt, scream in restaraunts and draw on the walls..

I think that the problem with gentle parenting is that the workplace/ school is not like that. It's follow the rules or there are harsh sanctions. Not necessarily good but it's the reality.

I stopped shouting
I stopped using the naughty step. I do still use time outs very occasionally but I don't use for for general disobedience. I focused on gaining compliance through connection and collaboration rather than using punishments for disobedience.
I wouldn't really describe myself as gentle parent but I think I sway more towards that side now.

Aren’t they supposed to remove a child of they hit someone etc. That was my understanding. I think I’m confused about parenting styles.

I think they should, yes. But many don't because that seems like a punishment (they'd rather keep playing) or shaming (other children notice), or isolation (from their friends).

This is what I mean by the wacky absolutist rules. When you try to follow them to the letter, it looks a lot like being permissive

@Rowen32 Not who you were asking, but having had this exact scenario with my 2yo this morning (for an activity not school), the "natural consequence" is that he doesn't get to choose what he wears.

I gave him a 2 minute warning with a timer that it was time to get dressed. When the timer went off I showed him 2 tops and he chose one (crossly but he did it) and we put it on. Did the same with some trousers and he rejected all of them. I said something like "I've asked you to choose and you're not able to, so I'm choosing these ones," sat him on my lap and put them on him. He wriggled and complained and fussed, but then went happily back to playing until it was time for the next task.

I think some of that is gentle parenting and some isn't but I'm not particularly bothered either way. I use a lot of routine to scaffold getting ready in the morning, and right now I spread out tasks he doesn't like (dressing, tooth brushing, putting shoes on) so that he gets time to play in between. I have a timer so that his choice is "now or in 2 minutes" and neither of us get drawn into "just one more" or "I need to do ..." And I follow through and do the thing when the timer goes off. Those things aren't explicitly gentle parenting, but aren't necessarily inconsistent with it either.

What is perhaps not gentle parenting is that I absolutely follow through with the task even when he kicks up a fuss, rather than spending ages trying to convince/persuade him to do it. I do it calmly as much as possible, I might make it a bit silly, and if there is something that is often causing a lot of friction and getting us both frustrated and angry (tooth brushing...) I try and find a different way of doing it. But part of the reason there was not much fuss about the clothes this morning is because when I say time to get dressed he knows I mean it.

I think where gentle parenting gets stuck is that people think that naming emotions and offering choices is all you need. With a lot of children it's not. And as the parent, you have the big picture knowledge about what is important (not being late, having clean healthy teeth, playing in a way that builds friendships, getting hated mundane tasks done), so you also have the responsibility to teach your child how do those things.

No wonder many children get a shock when they get to school when they are told what to do and will have punishments if they don’t.

I always gave DT’s the timescale of my expectations but there would always be a time out or missed activity if they didn’t do as I asked and when I asked.

Well I can only say from my perspective. I chose this scenario as it's a battle I have every day with DC! And also it's something that's really important so you can't just let it go. So I give plenty of warning and ask several times for them to get dressed, they usually don't do it . I have had success with using fun timers on YouTube and they have to get dressed before the timer explodes. That usually works. I suppose both these methods could fall under gentle parenting. However if these methods weren't to work I would absolutely resort to threats example 'if mummy doesn't get to work I won't earn enough money for Xmas presents/birthday presents' or 'if you're late you will get into trouble with the headteacher'.On very rare occasions I have had to simply manhandle them and dress them. I believe in gentle parenting your are not meant to manhandle DC and everything must be done with their consent but IRL this just doesn't work for many kids. For example they need to get dressed, brush teeth and if they won't do it willingly they need to be forced. To take school attendance as a topic as it's very relevant right now, it's amazing how many parents I know irl who's kids are having problems with attendance/lateness but they don't have a firm red line of 'you go to school unless your are genuinely ill'. They have been inconsistent with letting DC have random days off here and there and then wonder why their kids think they can opt out of school. My DC know that is an absolute red line. They will go to school eventually so any mucking about delaying getting dressed is putting off the inevitable. Many children actually don't have that boundary.

I really hope you’re not put in time out or on the naughty step in the workplace.

We can’t treat a 2 year old like they’re in the workplace, there’s nothing to suggest shouting/hitting/belittling your child makes them any more prepared for life as an adult than having your feelings validated and age appropriate expectations, with boundaries.

In my classroom - and in my home, for my own children - one way of holding a boundary is to say ‘I know you are feeling really angry, and at the moment you are showing that in a way that is hurting other people. Because it’s not right for other people to be hurt, I want you to sit here on your own for just a moment with your toy / a book / a cushion and try to breathe really deeply like we’ve all practised.’

That is, in effect, a ‘time out’ or ‘the naughty step’. But instead of shouting ‘into time out NOW’ I have given them a boundary about hitting others, recognised their feelings and told them how to regulate them.

It seems to me that this is all about how we ‘name’ things and ‘exactly how we do’ things rather than the nature of what us done (a short time by themselves).

I can see the reasoning here and appreciate the sentiment. But to my mind, if a child is being violent they have lost control and can't listen. I'd put them in timeout then have that brief conversation when the situation is calm. Plus, if you've been violent, you get the punishment. End of. Violence is never acceptable. A child of any age needs that lesson every single time. And it should hurt them!

I always thought I'd be a gentle parent, as I'm a pretty laid back, calm person. I am but I have seen the negatives too.
1.) parents who don't say no. So little Billy wants to eat his third cupcake. Mum says 'Billy, I'd rather you didn't eat that as there's not enough for all the children to have three' Billy continues to move cupcake onto plate. Mum 'Billy, I don't think you should have a third, remember what we said about sugar and treats'. Billy unwraps cupcake. Mum tries distraction, fails. Billy eats cupcake. In GP, what happens then?!
2.) you really have to say no when people are in danger, kid running around with big stick etc, there really is no way to be gentle. The amount of times I've heard 'gentle hands!' as Thomasina is whacking the shit out of Betty.

However, my friend says I should be firmer with my two. I think it's about knowing how their brains work. My dd loves swearing, she's obsessed with it. Shouting and calling her out for swearing just gives her more of a buzz. If I ignore it and try distraction, she doesn't get that hit and on the whole, the swearing reduces. I'm sure many see that and think I'm permissive though.

These examples are permissive.

A GP reaction to hitting is not saying 'gentle hands' and ignoring it. That's not any kind of parenting.

A GP reaction might be saying 'I can't let you hit' or 'I will not let you hit Bob' while you physically hold their hands to stop them if needed. If it continues, then you remove them from the situation with something like 'I'm worried someone is going to get hurt so we are going to leave/have a break'. In reality, many people with young kids probably do a version of this anyway.

In the cupcake example, it's fine to stop Billy having a cupcake. It's not against GP in any way to prevent a child doing something that will adversely affect themselves or others.

A GP way to do it might be to say: 'You really want another cupcake. The problem is that then there won't be enough for everyone, so I can't let you take that one/you've already had two and any more might give you a sore tummy.' And then you might distract with something else or make a game of it depending on age: 'If you could design your own cupcake, what would it look like?' Or 'what toppings would you have if you baked a cake?' or something. Even 2yo DD can engage with that kind of thing (carrots apparently!).

Often kids will engage with something like that and then lose interest or forget they were bothered by the real cupcake. It's actually quite an amazing thing when it works - I've had both DDs go from the verge of a screaming tantrum to laughing and then happily trotting off, totally unbothered by the thing that 2 mins earlier was a massive flashpoint, by just putting play or a game or something silly into the mix.

I think the big problem with GP is that it feels like it takes much more time and effort to do. But in reality I've found that the times (plenty of them) where I've been exasperated and irritable and have reacted accordingly have just made things much more drawn out and unpleasant for everyone, so I'm not sure that GP is any more effort, it's just a different kind of effort.