To think gentle parenting is actually permissive

[theedgeoftheforest]

Even though those who favour it are very insistent it isn’t - well, it is, isn’t it?

Its all ‘they have no impulse control’ (they do) ‘you’re expecting too much’ (you’re not) ‘the teachers reward and sanction, complain to the school’ (nonsense.)

I know post after post will insist that gentle parenting does have boundaries and to be fair I see gentle parents talk a lot about boundaries but they don’t seem to have a clue how to implement them and their kids run rings round them.

I think gentle parenting can work or not work depending on the parent and child and their interpretation of it. Some of the stock phrases really annoy me though. "I can see you're having big feelings right now", "kind hands"....

I do think parents often seem to have very low expectations from their kids though and they are capable of things earlier than modern parents expect.

Fine if it came from Diana, whatever. But current thinking on authoritative parenting isn’t about ‘punishment’. It’s about natural consequence discipline which is not the same thing.

At no point in any of my studies were any of those things recommended. The general line is that gentle parenting is authoritative parenting. Academically.

I've already said up thread I would only empathise with the two of my children who it helps.

Sometimes I might whine to my husband about the endless train delays on my commute and when he listens and empathises it helps me to feel better and I stop my moaning.

We're talking about toddlers here. If my toddler feels hard done by because he can't have another biscuit it isn't too hard for me to offer a little empathy so that he can move on.

I took a quote from the research that you linked to. This is my area of study/work. I haven't read any papers where authoritative parenting is defined by no punishments and therefore 'gentle parenting'. I think the current research shows that gentle parenting can be as effective as authoritative parenting when strong boundaries are held and enforced but to be honest there is no long term research into gentle parenting that I have seen, it's all in its infancy. Gentle parenting should not be confused with authoritative parenting academically though, it is separate to both permissive and authoritative parenting.

Sure adults do it, I never said they didn't, it's not good though is it? Not behaviour I want to encourage.

Adults also lie, cheat, are rude, selfish etc and I try not to encourage those behaviours either.

Being whiny, unless genuinely hungry or in pain, is something I actively want to repress in my kids. I'm a secondary teacher and I've seen the minority of kids who still have this behaviour (whiny, entitled) by that age and it ain't pretty.

Realistically, most parents blend parenting styles. Few parents are able to adhere to one style 24/7. Gentle parenting isn't supposed to be permissive, but it can tip over into it when parents are tired, don't want another battle, are naturally conflict avoidant and have to work at the boundaries and discipline side of parenting, etc. There are also some times when even the most hardcore gentle parenting types have to be an authoritative (not the same as authoritarian) parent - when a child's behaviour is putting their own or others' safety at risk, for example.

A "lighthouse" parenting style that blended empathy, containment, consistency and clear boundaries worked much better for us than either the gentle or authoritative styles, neither seemed to fit us. With two autistic DC, there needed to be some set routines and rules and consistency and we needed to provide that safe harbour and dependable familiarity when the world outside our family unit and home was unpredictable. Of course we didn't always do it perfectly, as none of us do!

Yes.. validate the feelings that are worth getting upset about (hurt themselves, scared of getting an injection etc). But excessive sympathy over trivial stuff just makes the child think there's something to be upset about when there simply isn't. They don't need to be upset about letting a friend have a go on something or not being allowed to hog all of the toys or not being allowed a biscuit right before dinner.

I might say in a cheery tone "I know you don't like it but you have to share, give X one if those toys" or "no biscuits now as we're about to have dinner" or "time to let X have a turn now, you can have a turn again later". There are all the other tactics like choices, distraction etc and help model the behaviour and show them how to play kindly together.

What gentle parenting definitely doesn't do is shame, threats, disproportionate punishments, lies. So "why are you so whiny all the time" "why can't you share nicely like other children" "if you don't share nicely Santa will see " "If you eat too many biscuits your tummy will hurt". A lot of so called gentle parents lie to their kids to avoid conflict. Gentle parenting is about being honest and respectful.

I mean I’d argue that lying and cheating aren’t really comparable to whining, and don’t need to be treated the same.
Children also cry a lot, that’s not something I’d encourage in an adult. But we meet them where they are. I’d think it over the top if my friend burst into tears because the Lego set they’d just built broke. I was much more understanding when my 2 year old cried when he dropped his duplo car.
My husband came in tonight complaining about delays in his work day. If we’re honest, it was an entirely predictable part of his job, he knows to expect it, it happens regularly, but it still irritates him. Was it great to listen to? Nope. Have I heard it before? Absolutely. Did I berate him? Of course not. I listened, I empathised, we moved on. He felt better, and whilst it’s frustrating sometimes, I’m genuinely glad that he feels able to talk to me. And yes I agree the biscuit to us is such a minor thing, but it’s not to the child. To them it’s as big a deal as the really awful lesson you had to endure, or prisoner who threatened me during my shift.

Most people deal with minor setbacks pretty stoically I would say... I work in a customer facing role and most people accept the rough with the smooth, a minority complain constantly! This is of course different to a justified complaint when something has gone badly wrong.

People who moan constantly about everything are extremely draining but thankfully most of my friends and family are the sort to make the best of any situation

Most people on the internet completely misunderstand authoritarian/authoritative/permissive, using them as a shorthand for "things I think are too harsh" / "things I think are reasonable" / "things I think are too lax" and they think you can put individual actions like for example time out, into one or another of the boxes. Which is not how it works - it's about how you are across time. Everyone has days where they say something too harsh or give in on something that usually they wouldn't because they are tired or whatever. You can't assess someone's parenting style from an individual moment.

3WildOnes is right here - you can read the original papers, they aren't hard to find, and judging by the time period I wouldn't be so quick to say that physical discipline, even, would ONLY fit into authoritarian. And certainly not things like time out or removal of a privilege. There is a sentence somewhere which is something about "robust discussion" which basically means parents and teenagers having a shouting match but it was about the parents holding the boundary and the child feeling comfortable/safe enough to come afterwards and apologise. I'm not going to look it up because I will be up all night reading through them all.

And gentle parenting isn't ANYTHING academically because it doesn't have a universally agreed-upon definition or a founder, so you can't effectively study it. You have to be able to define something to study it.

I'm not aware of any studies on natural consequences either, but I would be interested to read them if you could share any links. I think the current trend for natural or related consequences is hugely misguided, actually. I totally get the intent, but I think the downsides outweigh the benefits massively. It is better either to structure parenting so as not to really impose consequences artificially at all, which is possible both in behaviourism-based approaches and of course for more collaboration-based/bottom-up approaches. Or if you have to use them, it is actually considered best to have them be very very predictable, mild, clear and predetermined in advance - which makes all the logical stuff difficult to do, and it doesn't have enough of a benefit to be worth it.

Research requires reading of other papers then doing in-depth analysis. Not necessarily following up by writing a paper. In addition the level of analysis required would depend on the level of study. Research for GCSE, A-Level, Undergraduate, Masters and Doctorate have different depths and analysis requirements. I shall not be writing a paper attachment theories however it shall form part of my research to enable me to understand the different aspects of my research. What you mean is a majority of people use grey literature and do not necessarily have access to academic papers. Even academics who write books, will simplify the language and methodology of the approach and findings, otherwise the general public would not find it as engaging.

But I don’t think a toddler being upset about not having a biscuit means they’re going to grow up to whine about everything. Is it frustrating some times? Absolutely but they grow out of it. My 7 year old very rarely complains now. But I also never berated him when he did when he was really little.

Everything’s relative isn’t it? I used to work in a clothes shop, and I remember complaining that a customer swore at me when I couldn’t give them exactly what they wanted. Now I work in a prison, and I wonder why on earth I let that bother me. I once had someone tell me to ‘watch what happens’ if i didn’t give them their money back. It felt so threatening at the time, I wouldn’t even flinch at that now. I wasn’t wrong when it upset me, it just wouldn’t now. And that’s true of a toddler being told no.

This is the only paper that I know of that has looked at gentle parenting academically and in terms of parenting styles and from what I remember it puts gentle parenting somewhere in between authoritative and permissive.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0307492

Oh fantastic, thank you! That is totally new and looks very similar to something I was wondering so will definitely have a read.

I think of gentle parenting as: don’t use fear or shame to make your kids behave well.
and don’t focus on outward behaviour to the extent that you couldn’t care less about what’s going on inside.
it’s not permissive parenting.
it should be assertive and kind.

I didn't say she had little insight, she could have all the insight in the world. She just doesn't have to be so bloody rude about it. Replying in a snarky way to mock the OP is just unpleasant.

I am in my 50s now and I don’t think children are lumps of plasticine that you can somehow mould into a predictable outcome by using a particular parental approach. Children do have free will and personalities just like adults do. Sometimes a child can be raised beautifully but still be unpleasant as an adult. It’s much more complex than people think. I am in a large social network and that’s how I have come to my conclusion.

I think gentle parenting is hard to do, as it involves not yelling and hitting, while maintaining consequences and boundaries. I think many people fail for that reason - either not regulating themselves or not having strong boundaries (or both). It requires huge self discipline and regulation on the adults’s part. But I think it is one of the better approaches . I wish there had been more training available on how to do it while upholding all of the needs of the family members, not just kids. It’s important that children learn that adults get tired, need their help with chores, have to manage household budgets etc. This is all part of the self regulation process for the adult in their capacity as parent and ultimately for the child who watches their parents and subconsciously copy them.

The worst parents I have seen are those who are not consistent. Those who lavish their kids one day and then on the next, because they are in a bad mood, absolutely let loose and belt them for minor things.

I think people misunderstand it because of the name. I’ve seen it described as ‘respectful parenting’ which makes more sense imo. Yes, there are boundaries- literally every gentle parenting resource I’ve ever seen stresses this. It’s the way I wish I’d have been parented so it’s the way I’m parenting my children 🤷‍♀️

There are studies that will come out in the next couple of years that are looking at 'gentle parenting' as a distinct parenting style separate to authoritative and permissive and comparing short term outcomes. What I think will be really interesting though is when the long term studies come out and look at outcomes for teens and young adults. Unfortunately that won't be for a long time!

I wish people would actually research gentle parenting before trying to pull it apart.

Gentle parenting is pretty simple when broken down. The concept is that the feeling is ok but the behaviour is not when trying to correct something. It's about having consequences that are relevant eg removing a child from a bath tub if they refuse to stop splashing. It's about treating children with respect.

We spend our lives being told to respect our elders. This is about giving children respect but also boundaries, rules and age appropriate consequences. It aims to remove toxic masculinity, people pleasing and sacrificing your own needs at the expense of everyone else. It's about being heard.

Permissive parenting is just letting a child do what ever they want which is a recipe for disaster. You don't see the children who are brought up through gentle parenting because they aren't the ones swinging from the curtains.

Examples of gentle parenting
Child a wants go play with what child B is playing with. "Child b hasn't finished their turn yet but when Child b has you can have your turn."

Child hits sibling "It's on to feel angry but it is not OK to hit. I am going to take baby over here to keep everyone safe"

Kid keeps splashing in the bath "I can see you are having difficulty not splashing whilst in the bath. I'm going to remove you now and we can try again tomorrow"

That's not what I said though.

Your 7 year doesn't complain and it sounds like you don't either . That's the link, not whether he whined as a toddler.

What did you change and how did you change it? Asking genuinely

Really interested in your post - how would you tackle said example?
I think it's important children realise there's a line they can't cross (as in make everyone late for school) but like you say there's only so long you can be gentle for before time starts running out, it's really hard, I really like your post as it's so wearing trying to be constantly gentle

You said (and I agree) that adults who constantly moan are draining. I’m saying that I don’t actually think there’s a correlation between tolerating a toddler whining and an adult who complains about everything.

The fact that I sympathised and allowed my son to be upset about being told no to a biscuit has not turned him into a little boy who’s always whinging. The bigger picture of how my husband and I behave when it comes to disappointments/setbacks, the way we’ve spoken to him about his feelings (in general. I’m not about a 10 minute conversation about a biscuit 😂) etc has. Allowing / not allowing the whining is kind of irrelevant. It’s what happens around it.

Absolutely this!