To think gentle parenting is actually permissive

[theedgeoftheforest]

Even though those who favour it are very insistent it isn’t - well, it is, isn’t it?

Its all ‘they have no impulse control’ (they do) ‘you’re expecting too much’ (you’re not) ‘the teachers reward and sanction, complain to the school’ (nonsense.)

I know post after post will insist that gentle parenting does have boundaries and to be fair I see gentle parents talk a lot about boundaries but they don’t seem to have a clue how to implement them and their kids run rings round them.

It sounds unhealthy to me. Whining kids are annoying. There is no way to not get annoyed unless you are repressing your own feelings.

Parenting shouldn't be hard work, at least not on a day-to-day basis. Of course there are always rough days. But in general I don't want to "work hard" when I'm with my kids. I couldn't - they live in my house - they are there all the time. I like a relaxed life. I like to have fun. And fortunately that's how it usually goes.

Mind, I also wouldn't enjoy being a permissive parent, because my house would be a mess and all my biscuits would be gone. Or an authoritarian parent because constantly enforcing lots of rules is exhausting, as is shouting and punishing. But I'm absolutely a "lazy" parent in the sense that I avoid "working hard at parenting" whenever I can get away with it.

I think the anti-posters see aggression and control as like poisoning. You can get steadily accustomed to it by taking small doses. I see it like drowning. Holding a child underwater doesn't make them better swimmers. Holding them up, teaching and explaining does.

Children grow steadily and have other influences. My child met other, more 'do as I say', adults. Her music teacher is a dragon. No shit is put up with. She adapts. She really likes him. I didn't 'rescue' her from his style, and if she has a boss like him, she'll be fine.

Are your children school age where they will get told off and given punishments?

I’m not saying that it does.

I was always respectful to my children, even if ultimately I was telling them that there was no discussion or explanation for my decision.

But I never gave it the ‘Judy, you have to be nice to Emma because Emma will be sad if you don’t share your toy. It’s a nice thing to do sharing isn’t it. Wouldn’t you like Emma to share her toys with you?’

I simply said ‘Judy, share with Emma please or I won’t bring you out to play with her anymore.’

Firm, fair and actually more respectful than I’ve been spoken to in my adult life on plenty of occasions. But no, I won’t always offer an explanation and don’t expect that in the future either.

I disagree massively with your statement about whining kids are annoying and there is no way to not get annoyed unless you’re repressing feelings

i think this is where true GP works absolute wonders. Stop repeating the same behaviours that cause you to repress trauma and feelings.

true gp takes into account that some behaviours are a struggle and to help them along it rather than shut them down immediately or tell them they’re going to have something to truly cry about for example. This is where it really makes a difference.

I simply said ‘Judy, share with Emma please or I won’t bring you out to play with her anymore

The problem with a lot of these 'if you don't do this, we won't do that' things is that they are toothless. I doubt very much that Judy would never get to see or play with Emma again if she didn't share this one toy on this one occasion, just like all the other 'consequences' parents say that they will never follow through on: if you don't stop that, we won't come on holiday again, do this or no birthday party, etc. After the first few times, the kids know it's toothless too (and also a lot of these consequences are actually just negative consequences for the adults). It becomes baseless threats that carry no water once kids realise that you aren't being truthful (which I think is where the respect thing comes in. I also don't think in the boss example, he did speak respectfully, I would never speak to another adult like that, it was condescending.)

In the Judy/Emma situation, I'd fall somewhere between those two camps. I wouldn't make threats that I know aren't realistic such as never coming to play again, but I might say that if Judy is having trouble with sharing, it might be a good idea for us to leave this time. And if it keeps happening then end the play date there, but not with the threat that she'll never get to do another one or that she can't ever have play dates again or some of the other stuff that often escalates from really very minor childhood stuff.

These threads are a bit pointless, as there is no absolute value of gentle parenting. Proponents will say it is brilliant, opponents will ascribe the worst kind of lazy uninvolved parenting to it.

Fwiw, I would consider I "gentle parent" from what I know of it. I try and explain expectations, give reasons for what I ask them to do, and don't implement arbitrary punishments. They are not allowed to run wild, or have no boundaries.

I don't think overly permissive or lazy parents is a particularly new concept. There have always been parents who handwaved away bad behaviour. On the whole, most parents I've met seem to be genuinely trying their best and wanting do do the right thing by their kids

Permissive / low touch parent here in that I don't think 'parent' is a verb. However (to me) if you must parent, then gentle parenting does seem the better approach.

Thank you, I felt the same in response to a post upthread saying how parenting should be hard work, you're never allowed to be lazy at any time, etc etc. It's unrealistic especially if you also work and have other responsibilities, multiple children, etc. This is what I mean about the wacky absolutist rules. Never raise your voice! Never a cross word! Never show you're tired or irritated!

There's no need to martyr ourselves. How can we continually "validate" or children's feelings if we never let them see us "validate" our own?

I want my children to have empathy and responsibility and part of that is learning how their behaviour makes others feel, within reason. In my strong opinion, it is OK to acknowledge you've had a long day and are tired and therefore have a lower resilience to whining. It does children no harm to learn to "read the room". Yes I have been known to say "I've got a headache, don't even start. Let me have a hot drink first and then you can tell me what it's about. But no whining ok, speak normally or I'm not listening" and yes I say this in an irritated/exasperated tone.

I sometimes put my own emotional well-being first for a few minutes at a time and that does no one any harm. On the contrary I think it probably does them a lot of good to see that their parents are real people with thoughts and feelings and needs and aren't just 24/7 servants to their child(ren). Goodness knows that I spend almost every waking hour either working, breastfeeding dc2 or entertaining dc1. I'm allowed to get fed up occasionally.

Gentle parents.

I understand the desire to show respect and love. To not instil fear or damage confidence.

But do you not think that explaining yourself whenever you want to draw a boundary, leaves that child expecting other adults to explain themselves e.g teachers

”Joseph move seats please”
”Why!”
”Because I’ve asked you to”
”Why though!”

And don’t you think that a child needs to learn about hierarchy and authority? One day they are likely to have a boss, and a bigger boss, and the company boss etc etc

And they should know that a teacher is acting in loco parentis, and therefore is the authority.
Children should not see themselves as equals to the people who are taking responsible steps to care for them. There is a huge maturity difference that suggests the adult should generally have the say so. The child should understand that they are no owed part of the decision making process.

If I ever said something, I meant it. If your children have seen that you are consistent in other ways, they are less likely to challenge and risk the consequence.

And also, fair enough on your suggestion. I think not explaining but leaving that particular play date is an excellent idea. Perhaps a blend of authoritative and gentle parent would work best.

Honestly a big thing for me is apologising when I've been unreasonable or irritable or behaved in an OTT way to something the kids have done. I can't always stop myself reacting like that, I'm a human being and I get annoyed, but I can choose how to repair it and I think the repair is the important thing, not just the rupture.

I don't really remember any adult ever apologising to me as a child for something they'd done. I've had this conversation with a few friends, who like me all had good upbringings, loving parents, etc. and none of us can remember ever being apologised to,
even with incidents we still remember as feeling aggrieved about. The moment passed and the 'repair' was just carrying on with life without really ever acknowledging what had happened, which I think can breed resentment.

But in the spirit of being respectful, just as I expect DC to apologise, DH and I have to apologise to them too when we've reacted badly.

Have you heard of the Milgram Experiment? Or the Stanford prison experiment? There are very dark sides to obedience and authority. The ideal is a child who would comply with reasonable requests and not comply with unreasonable ones.

You can argue that a child who has been parented with gentle but present boundaries, logic and emotional support, is much more likely to be able to navigate that than a child who simply does what they are told.

We are raising effective adults, not just controlling children.

I think these debates always end up unhelpfully polarised because "gentle parenting" and "authoritarian parenting" are set up as the only two options. Whereas they are much more like 2 ends of a very long spectrum.

I used a lot of gentle parenting techniques, but i found I wasn't fully buying into the gentle parenting ethos but couldn't quite understand why, because I didn't want to be an authoritarian parent either. This graphic from a parenting program really helped me put my finger on the issue.

Gentle parenting techniques and scripts are almost all about the bottom layer of this pyramid. And they are really important building blocks of a good parent-child relationship. But they are not everything that is important for parenting.

If you say that the gentle parenting stuff isn't enough, you are accused of doing just the punishment stuff at the very top of the pyramid. Or wanting to use physical punishment. When what you are actually talking about is all the stuff in the middle. And then when you explain, someone tells you that all of that is gentle parenting and that what you thought was gentle parenting is actually permissive parenting. Which it might be, but I have seen parent friends get stressed and burned out from just doing the bottom stuff, giving lengthy explanations, endlessly validating feelings and wondering why things are so hard all the damn time,so you could have fooled me.

And don’t you think that a child needs to learn about hierarchy and authority? One day they are likely to have a boss, and a bigger boss, and the company boss etc etc

To use this example, a good manager leads, they don't tell. And I want my child to join a union, refuse unsafe work, whistleblow if there is an issue, consider the morality of their work. Not just do as they are told.

Yes, there is a hierarchy. But there shouldn't be a dictatorship. You end up with groupthink and/or fascists.

I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with apologising if you’ve lost your temper and maybe cursed at the child or behaved inappropriately.

It’s good for them to see parents are human and it’s important to take accountability.
I think this is good role modelling.

I don't know much about gentle parenting. But reading the thread, the bits I don’t like are surrounding ‘explaining’ and a sense of feeling like authority doesn’t exist.

It’s quite possible that I’ve misinterpreted that, but I think that’s where gentle parenting runs into problems. Where perhaps good intentioned parents have also misunderstood.

Thats also not to say I fully agree with authoritative parents either. My mother was a very strict lady and really did live by spare the rod, spoil the child. I know she loved me, so I’m able to understand she was just doing her best.

I think my first post suggested that I did not follow a particular style and just tried to be the best parent I could be, at a lot of personal effort. And I do feel happy with my efforts because I have wonderful kids. I really am proud of them.

I have to ask, do you really think this is a respectful way for one colleague to talk to another, like you said earlier?

'”Flutter, were you aware that you turned off the office fridge before going home? Did you not think to check as you were messing with those plugs? What are people supposed to do today for their break time?'

I'm quite surprised if so, as I would never dream of talking like that to another adult, even if they had made a (pretty insignificant) mistake.

I might say something like: 'Flutter, just to let you know, you accidentally turned the fridge off last night when unplugging stuff, so some of the food/milk had had to be thrown out. No big deal, but just something to be aware of for next time.'

I would almost certainly be right in assuming the person who did it would feel annoyed at themselves and embarrassed and know not to do it again without any further input from me like I was scolding a child.

If you can't recognise how to talk respectfully to an adult, you almost certainly won't to a child.

There's also a lot of confusion on this thread about authoritarian v authoritative. They are not synonyms and are very different, opposites in some respects.

See I just fundamentally disagree that this needs to be a conversation. I tell my 3 year old no nicely, no again firmly and then make it clear I'm not discussing it further. Empathising with disappointment over a biscuit is just not necessary. I don't think that's going to traumatise her, in fact I think it's better for her to quickly accept it and move onto something else and enjoy herself.

But people WILL sometimes speak to you not very nicely. People will lose their tempers, or show frustration, or behave unprofessionally.

Im not saying you need to get a child used to that by any means, but I think drawn out detailed explanations and constant messages of understanding can leave a person a bit stunned when they enter the real world and not everyone is treating them in the same manner their parents did.

I think it’s perfectly fine not to explain myself. I think it’s perfectly fine to not always show understanding of every temper tantrum or emotion. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying
’Bessy, you’re not behaving very nicely and I’m not going to listen to you anymore about this’.

I can’t say I’ve ever met anyone who openly defines their parenting style one way or the other. But if I were to, whether they referred to themself as a Gentle Parent or a Traditional Parent (whatever that means), I’d think they were a total prick and most likely full of shit. Because parenting doesn’t follow a script. It’s true what they say that we were all brilliant parents before the kids came along.

Most sane parents are just trying to do the best they can, surely? And I think those that are will try in earnest to be firm, fair and respectful at all times, but also occasionally lose their shit because the reality is that kids are sometimes really hard work and parents are only human. As long as afterwards a discussion is had and an apology offered, I think that’s the best we can expect. That’s my take anyway.

As many have already said, a parent is a parent, not a friend. Firm boundaries are essential and pandering to the big emotions of little children is futile in my view. What good can be achieved by validating a toddler’s ranting and raving? Yes, they shouldn’t be admonished for their developmentally appropriate behaviours, but telling them it’s ok to throw a paddy because they can’t put a knife in the toaster is fucking ludicrous. Move them away from it, tell them it’s dangerous and ignore their response. How they feel in those circumstances is neither here nor there.

The same goes in public. I don’t know what this nonsense about shame is but if my two year old were to hit or shove another kid in the park, for example, I would absolutely remove them from that situation (swiftly and firmly) and tell them in no uncertain terms that such behaviour is wrong. And then I’d distract them with something else.

I have no idea which model of parenting the above approach favours and I also don’t care. Whatever approach you take - as long as there is no abuse which can never be tolerated - it’s very really nobody else’s business. And nobody wants to hear anyone else’s opinion on their parenting anyway. So to that end, OP, YABU.

That’s not to say I don’t judge others’ parenting but I at least have the wherewithal to either do it quietly or in the company of likeminded friends, like normal people. This thread, however, is just trying to stir some shit about a topic that’s been done to death.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Oh I completely agree with raising children to be critical thinkers. I like to think that if I’ve set good foundations, been a good role model and taught values and morals, that they will recognise when someone, even a manager is not behaving in an appropriate manner.
Teaching about authority is not about learning to be a slave to the powers above, but more about fitting into society.

A simple request to move seats in class should not be questioned mid lesson, and certainly not in the midst of a fluffy of emotion because they haven’t had the situation explained.

I guess there is a balancing act, like most things.

For two of my children empathising is what would help them to move on quickly. For one of my children it would prolong the upset so I would do as you describe.

Indeed! So much over-analysis of Feelings etc seems to be involved with Gentle Parenting (as generally described).

But like, what kind of adult do you want your child to become? I really like and esteem my dh, who is calm and stoic. I want to promote those qualities in my children. Endlessly indulging their emotional outbursts over trivial stuff is not it.

Absolutely I will "validate" feelings if say, a favourite toy is broken, or a playdate is cancelled etc. But, whining because you can't have a biscuit? Bratty behaviour that I don't want to encourage

The type of parenting I espoused was to teach and trust DDs to be their wonderful selves unless they needed correction or help.

I don't believe in authoritarianism in any aspect of life.