“Miss” and “Sir” in schools

[MyCleverGrayBear]

Been to lots of secondary school open days recently. At the state secondaries the children showing parents around etc called the teachers “Sir” and “Miss”. Is that normal? I haven’t heard this IRL ever.

(To be clear, “Miss, this parent wants to know about languages at school” vs “Mrs Jones, this parent would like to see the sports centre”. But also in a couple of classrooms there were children constantly saying “Miss, look at this, Miss, I’ve out the sign up, Miss, shall I stand here” etc and it was incredibly grating.)

And why are female teachers “Miss” and make teachers “Sir”? I felt like I was in a bad 80’s Grange Hill episode and Benny Hill was about to run in and chase me 🫣

This is ridiculous, if you don’t know someone’s name you just say thank you. That is normal, not calling someone you don’t know Miss.

Perfectly normal.
We referred to our teachers as Mr and Miss back in the sixties.
My kids referred to their teachers as Mr and Miss, as do the grandkids today.

I knew it was time to retire when a child called me Gran.

If I meet a former pupil they generally call me Miss unless I knew them well and they remember my actual name. (If I taught them for only a year in Y9, shared them with another teacher or only encountered them when on locker duty, they may well have forgotten it.)

But actually, in this case, the addition of Miss denotes a level of formality and respect, as it should.

Erm....teachers and students are interacting all the time. They do know each other. Maybe not as best friends but more than an unknown waiter in a restaurant or person behind you in the bus queue. If your friend held a door for you, you might day thanks, but you also might say thanks, John. Why is this different?

@notbelieved Well the same scenario would be if you said to your friend John, 'thanks Sir' for holding the door.

Plenty of countries manage in their schools without a sir/miss dynamic by using actual names. It's fine to say it's a custom in some UK schools but strange to make out that schools need sir/miss to function.

I'm a teacher in England and I think it depends on area. I trained in one city where it was very much Mr/Mrs Surname, and if the pupil didn't know your name they'd usually just say Mr or Mrs and then look slightly awkward until you filled in the gap! Then moved to a different city and the first school I worked in was Mr/Mrs Surname but if they didn't know your name, they said Sir or Miss. My current school it's Sir or Miss constantly, to an irritating degree actually. Some pupils genuinely don't know what their teachers are called because they never bother learning their names. And if there's a TA we end up being called Miss and Other Miss!!!

Even If they are told to use Miss or Sir you’re willing to do that to your child. Kids won’t do that you do know that

is this a hill die on?

In the example given it would have been just as polite to just say "thank you for helping me with that ". No name or title needed.

Indeed its possible to navigate any situation politely without using a name or a title. I don't address a doctor as "doctor" or "doctor xyz" I just show politeness through how I speak to them and listen to them. (For example)

I don't remember there ever being an awkward gap when I didn't know a teachers name, there are plenty of ways to address someone without using their name or title and we navigate this all the time in the adult world

Well there you have it "thanks" would be absolutely sufficient. The name, or the sir/miss nonsense is not needed.

They can just say "thank you"

Or "excuse me where is the first aid?"

No names /titles needed

Respect is shown through conduct and tone. We all managed at my school and it had a great reputation.

I imagine thee re plenty of rude and and disrespectful children saying "sir/miss" so it seems a weird justification to claim it is about respect

I’m from NZ and at my old fashioned school I (and now my nephews tell me they still do) called teachers Sir and M’am. In NZ decades ago we were told not to call the female teachers Miss as it was disrespectful.

I have tried to explain to my sons at school in the UK that calling male teachers Sir and female teachers Miss (rather than m’am) infantilises the female teachers and is entrenching the patriarchy (!). They think I’m amusingly deranged but at least a few posters on here will understand which gives me hope.

It's a bit boiled frog maybe? It's so normalised people are used to it.

It reminds me of my children's previous school where they had four houses all named after famous male authors, and all the teachers, even the otherwise impressive female headteacher, seemed totally ok with it. Fortunately a couple of years ago a switched on deputy head arrived and swiftly changed the house names.

Interesting that in our example, and the article quoted above, it was male teachers who finally changed things. Maybe women are afraid to rock the boat/be seen as feminist?

If they know each other they can use their name surely?

This!

It’s so ingrained people can’t see it.

Posters keep using the word ‘normal’ but there are lots of things that are normal that are inherently sexist and many women just don’t see it. I suppose if you have been part of a system that has normalized these unequal titles and spent your whole career unquestioning then you are not about to take a step back and say actually you’re right that is unequal and sounds sexist in 2024!

Some head teachers do think it’s wrong and sets the wrong impression for female teachers as shown in the articles linked.

The fact that there are bigger issues or that the odd kid calls a teacher mum really isn’t relevant to this discussion.

Generally it's a mix, when I was teaching secondary I would be Miss Chocomocca but the kids would also call me just Miss if they were answering the register for example so was interchangeable between using full name and just Miss.

At my school I’m miss. The reason why I am Miss is because it doesn’t bother me and it’s easier for the kids. I know that if I went into a class tomorrow and said please can you not call me Miss- call me Ms Superhans then they would. It really isn’t a big deal at all. Have any teachers said they are forced to use Miss against their will??????

At my state comp we used sir and madam. Much better than miss and more respectful for female teachers.

It stuck and for year in retail I’d call female customers Madam if I had to use something.

It shows how perceptions differ. Madam only has negative connotations to me i.e. "little madam" or a women who runs a brothel. Miss is far more neutral.

In my school we insist on Ma'am instead of Miss.
In France, you cannot use Mademoiselle any more.

*Grapesofmildirritation *

couldn’t disagree more - what is misogynistic is telling educated professionals who have been called Miss for 20 years that they should be offended.

It’s so trivial that, sensibly, most people don’t care.