“Miss” and “Sir” in schools

[MyCleverGrayBear]

Been to lots of secondary school open days recently. At the state secondaries the children showing parents around etc called the teachers “Sir” and “Miss”. Is that normal? I haven’t heard this IRL ever.

(To be clear, “Miss, this parent wants to know about languages at school” vs “Mrs Jones, this parent would like to see the sports centre”. But also in a couple of classrooms there were children constantly saying “Miss, look at this, Miss, I’ve out the sign up, Miss, shall I stand here” etc and it was incredibly grating.)

And why are female teachers “Miss” and make teachers “Sir”? I felt like I was in a bad 80’s Grange Hill episode and Benny Hill was about to run in and chase me 🫣

Totally, I'm in a big secondary and sometimes I've no idea who a new member of staff is. Miss to the rescue!

Funnily enough, it's always been boys that say, 'Mum..' and are then mortified! I don't think I have ever had a girl say it.

My standard answer was generally, 'Yes, son. What can I help you with?' and they were horrified at having called me Mum.

This thread is getting pretty repetitive now so I’m sure it’ll die soon. But Sir/Miss is not “normal” to me. Not something used in any school I’ve been to as a pupil, a parent or a visitor. “Normal” is subjective.

This thread wasn’t intended to be particularly serious. I didn’t mention sexism in my OP (although tbf I did mention Benny Hill). Others have joined in and said that they feel it’s sexist.

Mainly, I feel it’s lazy and lacks respect. And for all the teachers who feel respected and are happy to be called Miss, good for them! Seriously! But many teachers don’t feel respected and I think using someone’s name is an easy way to inject some respect (a tiny, tiny, TINY part of what needs to change in many schools. And not the most important, or even on the top 100 list of most important things.)

But also, after a (happy) childhood at schools where good manners were drilled into us and teachers absolutely expected you to address everyone by name (all staff, not just teaching staff) as a matter of respect, hearing children in a relatively small school call teachers Sir and Miss was odd to me.

I can easily and happily accept that this isn’t odd to the majority, but for many of us it wasn’t/isn’t the norm.

I have bristled at posters telling me that I have no idea how my children address their teachers. Of course I do. One is not yet at secondary. I have a good relationship with both schools and have been in countless times to help, have meetings etc. I have also been on loads of school tours over the years and this was the first time I’d heard children call teachers Miss/Sir.

So this isn’t me flouncing off, it’s me trying to answer some people - especially people who haven’t waded through the whole thread (and who can blame you).

As a PP said, I’m surprised at the resistance to the suggestion that this isn’t “normal” for everyone. We all have different experiences.

I wouldn’t find it so odd if first names were used - never been a pupil or parent at a school that did this but it wouldn’t surprise me and I wouldn’t find it jarring like I did with Miss/Sir. Maybe some of that is deep rooted snobbery from childhood. Probably. But maybe some of the less kind comments here were also rooted in inverse snobbery.

Anyway, lots to think about and I’m glad people have enjoyed the debate. I have an extensive feedback form from the school in question so maybe I’ll add my thoughts on how teachers were addressed to that. Or maybe not! 😂🫣

Could be regional…where I grew up it was the norm in high school but not primary. Where I live now (hundreds of miles from where I grew up) miss/sir starts in primary.

We also had a lot of teachers who were Drs but were happy to be addressed as sir/Miss but if you called them mr or mrs name they’d correct you to say Dr

It was sir and miss when I went to school early 2000s. All except my science teacher who joked that unless he was knighted by the queen we were to call him Mr (surname). It was a big adjustment when I started college and were told we can call our teachers by their first name. I got very confused when going to one lesson and the teacher was my old French teacher from school who insisted we call him Jez. Then entering the world of work the partners/ directors were Mr/Miss/Mrs (surname) to clients and first names to their faces

In Scotland it's Mrs Jones
In England it's Miss .

I was at school in the 1960s and early ‘70s, village primary then grammar school, and it was “Miss” and “Sir” at both, similarly at my children’s schools in the ‘90s to late ‘00s.

I loved the John Alderton sitcom, Please, Sir!

But many teachers don’t feel respected and I think using someone’s name is an easy way to inject some respect.

It really isn't. As has been repeatedly pointed out, even teachers who would strongly prefer to be called Mrs/Miss surname, and who find it unfair that Sir sssms socially superior to Miss do not think that this is a sign of a lack of respect from students. Because for most students it is simply the normal, perfectly respectful how you are expected to address female staff. So how would changing the mode of address increase respect?

Yes, completely normal. We're not going to use our first names and all.to do with a quick acknowledgement. Would feel weird to hi Mr Smith, so just a quick hi Sir.

It’s Sir and Ma’am at my son’s school. In individual classes or form time they might refer to the teacher as their name “Dr SoandSo” or “Mrs Name” but mostly just Sir and Ma’am. The boys are often, but not always, called by their surnames though as well, so perhaps it is a somewhat old fashioned school.

I'm a teacher in a grammar school and all my kids refer to me as Miss. Yes I'm really a Mrs but it's endearing and it's just what they do. I find it quite respectful and not Grange Hill like at all! Yes I'm almost 50 and our school is nothing like Grange Hill. What has age got to do with it?

It's perfectly normal. When I was teaching in '70s, 80s & 90s I was always "Miss".
Except on the rare occasions when my name was used. Then I was Mrs. Miss-is Sur-name, always broken into 2 distinct syllables. Even though I was actually a Miss!
All men were Sir.

Totally normal at my school and also at almost all the schools I’ve taught at over the years, as a visiting singing teacher. One school I used to teach at used “Madam” instead of Miss, which I hated - I’ve never liked being called Madam even when I was young, but hate it even more now. It felt very weird being called Madam by all the pupils!

Like that in schools where I’ve taught and also when I was at school. I find it respectful!

For more than 30 years I taught in secondary and was always Miss.
Very occasionally in a classroom I was addressed by a tired student as Mum. It was always a boy.
If I mentioned a member of staff by first name in a corridor a student would join in the conversation without embarrassment or disrespect. It wasn’t an issue.
Once or twice at home a DC put up a hand and called me Miss.
Happy days!

Firstly, to address the sexism element, the use of sir came about because you wouldn’t say “yes Mr”. The equivalent would probably be Madam, but a lot of teachers, especially younger ones, would not want to be addressed as such!

Having been a school governor for many years and later the Chair of Governors, all the schools I worked with agreed the easiest way for children to address teachers, especially in the early days, is by Miss/sir. Young children often struggle with names and when the older ones move up to secondary education they have a huge number of names to remember, having them address everyone by name immediately would only add to the stress they are already under. Following on from that, most schools allow either miss/sir or the teachers name to be used, but most children stick to miss/sir because it’s easier or quicker just to say yes miss.

My sisters and I all work in schools and were talking about this recently. No issue with it in principle because actually the kids need a way to address staff they don't know in the corridor or playground - yes they may know the names of their own teachers, but can't be expected to know the names of all 70 odd teachers in an average sized secondary.

If a teacher holds the door open for a bunch of kids they say 'thanks Sir'. Or if a child sees me in the corridor and isn;t sure where the first aid room aid is, they say 'excuse me Miss, where is first aid?'

All fine, and normal. But we were wondering what happens these days with a non binary teacher? We eventually decided that all teachers should maybe be called Sir (not because male terms hold sway over female but Miss has connotations of married vs not married etc.....) - or else something new and completely neutral. ('Teach', anyone......😁)

But the principle of a generic way to address teachers/staff in a school does seem sensible. It's easy to use names at small primaries, but after that not so much....

Oh and it's Sir and Ma'am in the cadets......

Jeez OP it's not sexist, it's actually a very respectful way for students to speak to teachers. The terms are on an equal level. Teachers and staff also refer to each other this way. I work in a secondary school, and all the secondaries I know of are the same.

@Teenagehorrorbag Just prior to leaving teaching we had some Sri Lankan students join and they call every teacher "Teacher", so it would be "Teacher, where is the first aid room?" which worked well, although ofcourse not every adult in a school is a teacher.

Im not familiar with what any other countries do though but I wonder if others have a different approach.

It was always the case when I was at school (70s/80s) and until very recently when I was teaching (even at the SEND school where pupils used our first names - I was often 'Miss').

What’s wrong with simply “thank you” when a teacher holds the sort open. Why thank you Miss?
or “excuse me, please could you let me know where the first aid box is? Why do you need Miss?

In My school - secondary SEN it’s Miss and Sir as it’s shorter. In my daughter’s secondary she has to call teachers Ma’am and Sir. It’s been around for a while.

Because it is normal etiquette to use a person's name when talking to them? Hey, John, thanks for helping me with that....only school etiquette is such that we don't generally address teachers using their first name. Hence Sir and Miss.

Or are you suggesting teachers are not worthy of being addressed by normal standards of etiquette?