“Miss” and “Sir” in schools

[MyCleverGrayBear]

Been to lots of secondary school open days recently. At the state secondaries the children showing parents around etc called the teachers “Sir” and “Miss”. Is that normal? I haven’t heard this IRL ever.

(To be clear, “Miss, this parent wants to know about languages at school” vs “Mrs Jones, this parent would like to see the sports centre”. But also in a couple of classrooms there were children constantly saying “Miss, look at this, Miss, I’ve out the sign up, Miss, shall I stand here” etc and it was incredibly grating.)

And why are female teachers “Miss” and make teachers “Sir”? I felt like I was in a bad 80’s Grange Hill episode and Benny Hill was about to run in and chase me 🫣

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to prove. If you want to compare adults in working life referring to others with their titles as the same thing as 6yo referring to their teacher as teacher. Go for it. somehow entire countries manage without using the titles of miss and sir. If you want to call people with those terms, go for it. Also I don't think miss and sir are on the same level. Neither is Mrs and sir. I know I have to except the cultural norm and adjust my language when necessary, but I can still whine about it on an online forum 😁

If we're doing this then maybe we can use full titles. "Mistress last name" has a nice ring to it.

It's perfectly normal throughout the known universe ;-) (WPAYO?) and depends only on the teacher/child/culture of the school. Some teachers are ok with the kids using their first names, and that's ok too.
...an example of sensible use of preferred pronouns being used in action

I've worked in schools where you get called Ma'am instead of Miss. I don't mind either. Traditionally married women weren't allowed to teach. At secondary level a student may not know the names of every teacher so it's a polite form of address.

Mistress Seven sounds like a dominatrix 😂😂

Misogynistic?

The reason I take issue with “Miss” is because the history behind it is that married women had to leave the profession. That and the fact that Miss is a term of address for a young woman and Sir has no such connotations pertaining to a young man. But hey if you think me advocating for more respect for women makes me “ women hating “ um, I guess I don’t know what to say to that.

PP have explained that Miss is short for Mistress, not a young, unmarried woman. We had Senior Mistresses at school, as well as a Headmistress. The fact that prior to the1944 Education Act married women were not allowed to teach isn't really relevant. That's not what 'Miss' means in this context.

You think that you are advocating for 'more respect for women'. The majority of us who teach are happy enough to be addressed as 'Miss' (even though I'm married and almost 60) and have repeated said that it IS a term of respect and that pupils in no way treat us as less than our male counterparts. I don't want addressing as 'Hey - Missus' thank you. That has far less respect (in England at least).

I DO find it patronising that people who are not in my profession are busy telling me they would prefer it if pupils addressed me in a different fashion as though I am too stupid to see that it lacks respect. I don't need anyone to be offended on my behalf.

I hate Ma'am.

And the equivalent of headmistress is headmaster so why not Mast(er) and Miss.
Every single person who has posted on here trying to show that the terms are equivalent has failed.

*AnnieAzul *

yes the attitude of people such as yourself that the hundreds of female teachers on here saying they are addressed as Miss and are fine with it are too stupid to realise that we should be offended.

Thinking about it.....
Miss (as others have said) comes from Mistress and some schools who have a female in charge might still call her Headmistress.
But where does the Sir come from?
Traditionally male teachers were Master (Schoolmaster, Headmaster etc).
Did the Sir evolve from the old boarding schools which were very strict and almost military like ? Many boys would have been expected to do a stint in the armed forces back in the day.
I'm quite curious now.

You might be used to it and fine with it but many of us think the titles Sir and Miss are unequal, as do many people in your profession.
It's not patronising, it's just an alternative view. I don't feel patronised that you disagree with me.

I had to use the titles Miss and Sir at my state secondary and I thought as a young woman that the titles were unequal. I saw and noticed many other unequal things, such as all the pictures of famous scientists on our science lab wall were all male but the teachers didn't see a problem with that either.

Those were a couple of my observations as a pupil.

There are also links to two articles showing that some teachers are not fine with it but you chose to ignore those.

I also want to say that I don't think it's just about whether teachers are fine with it (even though many aren't) it's the message the pupils receive that I'm not fine with. It's not all about the teachers you know.

I'm Scottish, and hadn't heard this until DS started secondary school in England.

I quite like how Sir sounds, but don't love Miss. Feels like another example of everyday sexism really.

For those expecting students to know all of their teacher’s names, are you not aware of the current state of education at the moment? The last school I worked in had around 20 supply teachers on the average day covering the huge numbers of permanent staff off sick. It’s not that surprising that kids don’t know all of their teachers names. Plus I’m genuinely baffled that you’ve never heard ‘miss’ or ‘sir’ before. It was definitely that way when I was in school in the 80s and 90s and when I was teaching for the past 20 years!

I agree! I teach 120 children each week and they all know my name. And I knew all of their names after about 2 weeks of teaching them. It’s just habit (tradition?) that children in some schools say ‘sir’ and ‘miss’. It’s not necessary, and I don’t particularly like it. I’ve always been Mrs xxx or known by my first name at all schools I’ve worked in.
The only person who has ever called me ‘Miss’ was a male member of staff at a primary school I worked in. Very weird and lazy (or maybe misogynistic - he managed to call male members of staff by their names!)

In class, teachers will know pupils names and vice versa.
In the corridor / between buildings at lunch - MUCH less likely.

Also, as has been pointed out many many times on the thread
Supply teachers are a thing

When a supply teacher comes into our school, they write their name on a board and tell the children their name. Strangely, the children all manage to use the supply teacher’s name, or (as children often do) just say ‘excuse me’ rather than needing to use the actual name. So, it’s perfectly possible for a school to avoid using ‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’, even with supply teachers. Just depends on the culture at the school.

These threads always end up with some teachers saying they're fine with it and so in their view it doesn't matter, when in reality it's not just about them.

A couple of teacher's saying it's better than them calling me mum (teehee)

A few people saying it's always been like that in England, that's ok then!

And a few saying it actually is an equal term because it comes from Mistress when the equivalent would actually be Master.

IN CLASS

But in the corridor all the other kids will call them Sir or Miss
as they will be gone by the end of the week

And yet, in any other environment everyone manages perfectly fine without needing to know the other person's name or address them by some strangely archaic title.

Or they could just say "excuse me " (or whatever) and no title (or name) is required.

I don't want kids calling me 'Mrs TheMoth' all day.
'Mrs TheMoth can I have a pen?'
'Mrs the moth can I have a new book?'
'Mrs TheMoth I don't get it. '

They all use names when referring to other teachers though:"can I get x from Mr y's room?' Etc

Miss is much quicker. Maybe for parity, we should all, men and women be referred to by the same thing. But only 1 syllable word please.