“Miss” and “Sir” in schools

[MyCleverGrayBear]

Been to lots of secondary school open days recently. At the state secondaries the children showing parents around etc called the teachers “Sir” and “Miss”. Is that normal? I haven’t heard this IRL ever.

(To be clear, “Miss, this parent wants to know about languages at school” vs “Mrs Jones, this parent would like to see the sports centre”. But also in a couple of classrooms there were children constantly saying “Miss, look at this, Miss, I’ve out the sign up, Miss, shall I stand here” etc and it was incredibly grating.)

And why are female teachers “Miss” and make teachers “Sir”? I felt like I was in a bad 80’s Grange Hill episode and Benny Hill was about to run in and chase me 🫣

I’m not really defending it. I’m saying it isn’t the dismissive thing many are suggesting, and it doesn’t reflect lesser respect for female than male teachers.

So your school insisted you use ‘miss’ or ‘sir’ and never the teacher’s name? Seems unlikely. The discussion here is about whether it’s ok to use when you aren’t using the name, so, yes, students have to use the title or the name, no, they don’t ever have to say sir or miss if they don’t want to. They can use the full name. Nobody is stopping them. They can even manage in most cases not using either. My dad was the head of my primary school. In all the time I was there I didn’t call him sir or Mr xxxx. I was just polite and waited politely for attention instead of calling for it.

In your opinion it doesn't but many of us think it does. I'm not sure we should stick with a title that many people believe shows lesser respect for women, even if not everyone thinks it does.

Normal

Completely normal

YABU. if you don’t like the culture in the school then don’t chose it. But as you’ve seen, it’s absolutely normal

It's also normal for boys to take over the playground with football games whilst girls are relegated to the periphery but it doesn't make it right or best practice.

My primary was Mr or Mrs X, secondary was Sir or Miss. There was some tolerance in the first year for pupils saying Mr X, but the rule was Sir or Miss. Of course we used Mr/Mrs/Miss X when referring to someone, but that's a different matter.

I agree that in many cases you can avoid using anything, but as I mentioned before we did have some old fashioned ones who would answer back a yes with 'yes, sir' if someone was being told off, for example.

But why do you think it's less respectful?

I think one title for all women is MUCH less sexist than distinguishing between single and married women and 'miss' is a term of respect.

Calling teachers "Sir" or "Miss" is sexist, an academic has said. But why did these terms become the norm in British schools?
"Sir is a knight... but Miss is ridiculous - it doesn't match Sir at all," emeritus professor of English language and linguistics at the University of Roehampton. But how did these terms catch on?
There are no clear answers. But it seems that "Sir" took hold in the public schools of two or more centuries ago. It was common for boys in upper class families to call their fathers "Sir". "Sir" also became the default term of respect for male authority figures, including teachers, in an age of deference. Grammar schools "aped" the tone of boarding schools, says Dr William Richardson, general secretary at the Headmaster's Conference - the group representing independent schools. And "Sir" soon spread from private to grammar, and eventually into the wider state system. The equivalent term of deference for a woman at this time was "Ma'am". But few schools use this, although a school in Runcorn has used "Madam".
"Miss" is a different story. Until the 1944 Education Act, women teachers could not marry and remain in post. Teaching had been seen as incompatible with a wife's domestic duties. When a female teacher tried to overturn the law in 1925, external the Court of Appeal ruled against her: "It is unfair to the large number of young unmarried teachers seeking situations that the positions should be occupied by married women, who presumably have husbands capable of maintaining them." So before the marriage bar was lifted, "Miss" was always going to be accurate. Although the fact male teachers were not "Mr" gives credence to the idea that female teachers had second-class status.
Some British schools prefer a more egalitarian tone with first names being used. This is standard practice in Sweden. Meanwhile in France there is parity between men and women - maitre and maitresse at primary level, monsieur or madame above that. In many UK schools today, teachers are called by their name, such as Mr Jones or Mrs Jones. But in some, a woman teacher - even one who is married - continues to be referred to as "Miss". In many private schools there is a different kind of disparity. While male teachers are always known as "Sir", female teachers are called by their name - "Mrs Jones", for instance.
Follow BBC

I agree with you that one title (like Mr) is much less sexist than distinguishing between married and single but that is for another debate and irrelevant to this discussion because male teachers are not called Mr are they? They are called Sir!

I have said a few times why I think it's unequal, especially in 2024, but I felt the same back in the day when I had to use the titles at my state senior school. To me, then and now, Miss meant a single women and Sir was a male of great standing, higher status or a male who had been knighted.

I am not alone reading those two words a unequal.

They won't be taught by every teacher or staff member in the school. There are 10 sets for each subject other than PE in my daughters secondary, so 10 teachers minimum for each subject plus support staff and agency teachers, it's not surprising if they don't know the names of all staff.

If they're not taught by them or have interaction with them then they don't need to know their names.
Honestly, it works fine at my DS's school.

But it's not just that. It's that lots of us disagree that there is anything remotely disrespectful about 'miss'. Etiquette changes over time. For example, when someone calls a male customer 'sir' in a shop, do they mean he's a knight? No. Is 'sir' a more respectful to a man than 'miss' is to a woman in 2024 in the context of a school setting. I would say not.

The school I was visiting as a prospective parent isn’t huge. It only has 5 year groups and the children using Sir and Miss knew their names. And they were wearing lanyards, which was how I knew their names (quite high lanyards so no awkward boob staring needed).

When a shop assistant calls a man Sir they generally call a woman Madam.
All equal and fine.

To me Miss is not equal to Sir in any setting in 2024.

Is it, that doesn't happen at my DC's secondary school and 6th form college and it didn't happen at Junior and infant school. In P.E girls and boys still play mixed football and tag Rugby, DD is always keen to hang out the peripheral edge, she hates football! Is it ok for girls to hate football anymore as it does appear the girls have a choice in the matter.

The clerks in Chambers call their solicitors and KCs 'Miss' or 'Sir'.
Absolutely no disrespect or inequality there.

No choice not a choice

I'm not referring to P.E. but lunch and break time.
That's my point, why does the space have to be football. My experience is that if the girls want to do something else they are pushed to the periphery of the playground and often shouted at that they are getting the way of the football game if they dare to run around to let off steam in their own way. The space should be for both sexes, even if they want to skip around playing make believe games (at junior) but this is not the case in my experience.

This is not my experience, in fact I have never come across this.

Traditionally even the senior clerk would call even the most junior barrister "Mr" or "Miss" followed by their surname, whilst that barrister would address the clerk by his first name. In many Chambers this has now changed so that barristers and clerks address each other by their first names. In some traditional sets the older procedure is still followed.

If someone called me "Miss" in a shop I would be quite astonished. They would say "Madam" surely? That's the linguistic equivalent

If someone called me "Miss" in a shop I would be quite astonished.
I'm often called 'miss' in shops.
I'm clearly not a young woman but someone on their late 50s.
However I do not get offended. To me its about the way it is said and if there is no maliciousness or sneering then I'm happy with that!

I didn't say that anyone called women 'miss' in shops . I was merely using 'sir' as an example of the fact that words don't always mean what they used to or what people claim they do. I just think all of this 'sir equates to someone being a knight, do it's higher than miss' thing is silly when 'sir' doesn't actually mean you're a knight in the vast, vast majority of uses of the word. Sir in schools does not mean extra respect.