“Miss” and “Sir” in schools

[MyCleverGrayBear]

Been to lots of secondary school open days recently. At the state secondaries the children showing parents around etc called the teachers “Sir” and “Miss”. Is that normal? I haven’t heard this IRL ever.

(To be clear, “Miss, this parent wants to know about languages at school” vs “Mrs Jones, this parent would like to see the sports centre”. But also in a couple of classrooms there were children constantly saying “Miss, look at this, Miss, I’ve out the sign up, Miss, shall I stand here” etc and it was incredibly grating.)

And why are female teachers “Miss” and make teachers “Sir”? I felt like I was in a bad 80’s Grange Hill episode and Benny Hill was about to run in and chase me 🫣

You can't really judge whether it's the norm or not the norm unless you've got experience in quite a lot of schools though, can you? 'The norm in the school I went to and the one my dc goes to' isn't really much of an indication, is it?

Contextually, it's just a title. It's not a comparison of status.

In the US, they'd say 'ma'am'. Perhaps that's a better equivalent to 'sir'.

Trouble is, in the last sixty-odd years, the only person in the UK called 'ma'am' was the Queen.

Thing is OP, I’m with you in that I was surprised by it when my kids started secondary school. At my high school (manchester, 1990s) we definitely used the teachers proper names. Mrs Barham, Mr Jones etc. I knew that Sir and Miss was something kids did say, but given my only experience of high schools is my own one, I had no idea how prevalent it was, and had seen it in the beano I think, on some telly programs and in some “school stories” books (old fashioned ones).

So I was pretty surprised when my kids started to say “sir and miss” and I asked them about, seems it’s totally normal and from the way it’s used doesn’t seem to confer disrespect. I did tell them to use the teachers names if they preferred it.

I’m now aware that Sir and Miss is very widely used, and isn’t something that “only disrespectful children would do”. It doesn’t mean that order has broken down. But it’s not completely universal and those saying it is need to recognise it’s not absolutely every school that has this habit.

I also agree with you OP that despite it not being used in a disrespectful way, “Miss” is not equivalent sounding to “Sir” in terms of seniority outside of the school environment. It should really be Sir and Ma’am but as we never really use Ma’am outside of official situations, I can’t see it taking off. It’s a low lying sexist undertone thing that isn’t at all meant that way by people using it, but is a verbal reminder of patriarchy.

I have just given myself lines………

Miss must not tell her OH he’s got his knickers in a twist
Miss must not tell her OH he’s got his Knickers in a twist……

Triple sexism?🤯

Miss is basing her knowledge of English secondary schools on episodes of Grange Hill circa 1989 and ignoring everyone who says the use of Miss and Sir is completely and utterly acceptable.

Miss sounds like Hyacinth Bucket type of character who would say to someone in Prison ‘Oh yes dear, I know what it’s like for you, I used to watch Porridge with Mother’.

Not in my DS's school it's Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss or Dr plus surname.

It's not hard at all.

I understand that Sir and Miss comes from a hundred years ago when the male teacher was titled Sir out of respect and the female teachers were all unmarried and therefore Miss and carried less respect. It's outdated!

You sound like Imelda Davis.

Ssssh you are ruining the narrative of some of the posters on this thread who insist this doesn't happen anywhere!

It’s been pointed out several times that, while all female teachers were unmarried, that isn’t where ‘miss’ comes from. It c9mes from mistress - the woman in charge.

Yes, but it doesn't translate well in 2024.

It’s not a ‘narrative’.
Nobody has said that never happens.
Many people have said that in their extensive experience in a variety of schools and U.K. countries as pupils, parents and teachers the use of ‘sir’ and ‘miss’ is very common. In fact, it is the case in the vast majority of schools.

I don't think anyone has said it doesn't happen anywhere.

I absolutely do not consider that being called "miss" shows less respect for me than calling my male colleagues "sir".

Only if you persist in giving it a meaning it doesn’t have, and never has…

London school drops ‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ honorifics to fight cultural misogyny
This article is more than 1 year old
Principal of high-performing sixth form said two forms are ‘deeply unequal’ and diminish women

Education correspondent
Tue 6 Jun 2023 18.10 BST

Teachers at a leading sixth form will no longer answer to “Sir” and “Miss”, because they’re “deeply unequal” and feed into a view of the world that diminishes women, the school’s executive principal has told students.
While “Sir” brings to mind the heroics of Sir Lancelot and Sir Galahad, “Miss” is how you refer to “a small girl, or an Edwardian shop assistant”, James Handscombe told school assembly at Harris Westminster Sixth Form in central London.

Students will instead be required to address staff by their name – as in “Mr Handscombe” – and failing that, in an emergency where a pupil may have forgotten and needs a swift alternative, “teacher” will be acceptable, “in a pinch”.
It is not the first time the school has tried to make the switch. When it opened in 2014, the same approach was attempted but there was too much else to think about, staff could not make it stick and “sank into cultural misogyny”, Handscombe told students.“Which is what this is,” he said. “I don’t think that any of you are being actively woman-hating when you call ‘Miss’ over to get help with your chemistry, but we’re all feeding into a view of the world that diminishes women.
“Men get to be fearless leaders and alpha types, get credited for hustling whilst behind the backs of women it’s asked whether they deserve it, whether their career comes from good ideas or good looks, power moves or diversity lists.”
The sixth form was set up as a collaboration between Westminster School and the Harris Federation as a highly selective free school that gives priority to disadvantaged students with academic potential. It has quickly become one of the highest-performing sixth forms in the UK.

We always addressed our teachers as Miss / Mrs / Mr Surname.

And stood when any adult entered the room.

And our teachers always wore their gowns.

not sure if any / all of that is done now. 🤔

We don't tend to use the word Gay to mean bright and jolly now either.

Miss and Sir are unequal in today's language.

Not in the specific setting of education. Words have different meanings in different settings.

Interesting.

Yes, in my school you had to. First names would have been considered impolite. We did use first name with one teacher on a school trip, but I think that these days he would have got into trouble for inappropriately friendly behaviour with pupils.

To you it sounds fine, to me (and I went to a comprehensive school where we used Miss and Sir) it sounds unequal. If we lived in a world where women were listened to on the same basis as men in the work place and if women were respected in the same way as men for equal work I'd not be so bothered.

It's not the biggest problem in the world but it does grate and think it needs updating. Many women are just accepting of inequalities because it's the way t's always been. For me these titles are unequal in today's world.

I don’t think that any of you are being actively woman-hating when you call ‘Miss’ over to get help with your chemistry, but we’re all feeding into a view of the world that diminishes women.

I agree with this. And I find it fascinating people are defending being called "Miss" so strenuously just because it is what they are used to.

I think it says something about you that you have no clue how the other 90% live, not even through television.

Plenty of people don't watch much TV.

I don't think anyone thought that we should call teachers by their first name, but that we should call them Mrs. Smith or Mr. Jones rather than just Miss or Sir.

Well if you only went to one secondary school and weren't a teacher yourself, you know any different to the way you did it.

Totally normal.