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To think that releasing crickets at a gay rights conference, specifically to shut them down, should be considered a homophobic hate crime? Somehow these people are crowdfunding to do it AGAIN

1000 replies

Zahariel · 17/10/2024 09:03

The optics of having to fumigate a hall after gay people used it to speak about their rights being eroded should not be lost on anyone.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13950839/Trans-activists-release-bags-insects-LGB-Alliance-conference.html

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/suspected-trans-rights-activists-disrupt-lgba-conference-with-live-crickets/ar-AA1s9JHH

This is CLERLY A HATE CRIME - yet it's being reported as trans rights activists, not anti gay hate mongers, I can't really understand why not

MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/suspected-trans-rights-activists-disrupt-lgba-conference-with-live-crickets/ar-AA1s9JHH

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:27

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:25

I don’t have a problem with an LGB organisation , or with services or advocacy specifically focused on challenges faced by sexual minorities.

I have a problem with the LGBA because of their specifically transphobic agenda.

They are objecting to ideas and practices which they, as people who are same sex attracted, believe are prejudicial to them.

Do you believe they should not be allowed to do so?

Helleofabore · 18/10/2024 14:28

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 13:41

Because I only see your username on trans related threads. There are so many threads relevant to feminism- most on mumsnet in fact since this is a board where women post about dilemmas and challenges in their lives. So many about how women are treated in the family courts for example.
You are nowhere to be seen on those, but you appear on every single related threads, promoting anti trans ideas, theories, sentiments… I’m just wondering why?

why is it relevant what threads I post on for this discussion?

And it is only your opinion that I post ‘anti-trans’ ideas, theories and sentiments. I think we have established that your opinion doesn’t matter at all to me and I don’t post to suit you.

Frankly if your argument is to somehow discredit the points I raise in this way, it says a great deal about your own confidence in posting evidence to support your points. And from what I have seen, even when you do post ‘evidence’ it doesn’t support your point as you want it to.

Maybe that is why you have resorted to this type of post.

Perhaps you should address the points raised by posters showing some in-depth thinking rather than whatever it is you are trying to do now….

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 18/10/2024 14:29

lookingformypage · 18/10/2024 14:21

But you decided to introduce another thread anyway, and in doing so can’t even evidence

You're the one who's attempting a derail by asking for posts from one thread to be posted in another thread (which I believe @MNHQ frown upon).

Feel free to go the thread and join the ongoing discussion.

You don’t need to put the posts in, a day and time I am sure will be sufficient for wes

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 14:30

lookingformypage · 18/10/2024 14:21

But you decided to introduce another thread anyway, and in doing so can’t even evidence

You're the one who's attempting a derail by asking for posts from one thread to be posted in another thread (which I believe @MNHQ frown upon).

Feel free to go the thread and join the ongoing discussion.

YOU brought the thread up then avoided anything to do with the claims you were making. The derailing started with you. Have a word with yourself.

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:31

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:24

not respecting someone else’s pronouns is fundamentally degrading to the dignity and value of that person. It’s a form of intimidation and bullying. Yes it is transphobic.

Bullshit

Pronouns are a recognition of sex. They are not a feeling.

If you are forced to use other people's pronouns or else you are 'transphobic' then that's a form of bullying and intimidation.

Pronouns are words used to refer to people and to address people .

it is entirely appropriate that you should be asked to address and refer to people using respectful language which is consistent with their dignity and value as a person, regardless of you own personal beliefs.

Again this is a basic part of being a decent, adult human.

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 14:35

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:31

Pronouns are words used to refer to people and to address people .

it is entirely appropriate that you should be asked to address and refer to people using respectful language which is consistent with their dignity and value as a person, regardless of you own personal beliefs.

Again this is a basic part of being a decent, adult human.

So I’ll ask, yet again, should a rape victim address her rapist as ‘she’, if that rapist identified as a trans woman?

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:37

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:27

They are objecting to ideas and practices which they, as people who are same sex attracted, believe are prejudicial to them.

Do you believe they should not be allowed to do so?

i don’t think they should be given charitable status to promote transphobic ideas, no

Snowypeaks · 18/10/2024 14:38

ToyFace · 18/10/2024 12:59

Of course they do and as I said I don't condone the attack at all. What I said was that the attack was not Homophobic because they were not targeted for being gay, lesbian or bi but for being trans exclusionary.

And again, I'm not saying that they deserve to be attacked for excluding trans or even that they should have to include trans people if they don't want to. However that is what they were attacked for.

The phrase trans-exclusionary can be used in different senses.

The first sense is just the silly idea that unless trans issues are centred, trans people are being excluded.

Trans-exclusionary could also mean excluding trans people from the conference, or not accepting any as supporters. The LGBA and the men and women at this conference are not trans exclusionary. The LGBA have trans supporters, attendees tell us there were trans people at the conference. Some homosexuals are in relationships with trans people - of the same sex.

Another meaning of trans-exclusionary means that homosexual people exclude trans people of the opposite sex from their dating options. The people at the conference assert their same-sex attraction and refuse to be pressured into accepting opposite-sex relationships. The TAs want to deny same sex attraction and pressure them into opposite sex relationships - if the other person claims to believe they are the same sex as them. Being same-sex attracted, a woman not being interested in any male, however he identifies, is castigated as bigotry and akin to racism, demeaned as a "genital fetish", and they should try to get over it.
This is what TAs mean by "trans-exclusionary".
This is why a group of homosexual men and women were attacked.
This is homophobia.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:40

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:27

They are objecting to ideas and practices which they, as people who are same sex attracted, believe are prejudicial to them.

Do you believe they should not be allowed to do so?

We could phrase this in other ways.

Has any prominent trans person or activist posted homophobic content?

If the answer to the question is even a begrudging yes, then we have identified a problem that homosexuals are facing and needs to respond to.

They arguably can't do this within a setting that caters for both groups because it produces a conflict of interest where gay people may not have this issue acknowledged.

The argument ultimately can actually be reversed - and this used to create a group which identifies the need for trans people to challenge transphobia.

This still doesn't allow either, to prevent the other from meeting to discuss these potential issues through disruption or intimidation.

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:41

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 14:35

So I’ll ask, yet again, should a rape victim address her rapist as ‘she’, if that rapist identified as a trans woman?

I don’t think a rape victim should have to address her rapist at all, let alone address them in any particular way.
i think if you rape someone you lose your right to be addressed with any basic dignity and respect by the person you raped.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:41

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:31

Pronouns are words used to refer to people and to address people .

it is entirely appropriate that you should be asked to address and refer to people using respectful language which is consistent with their dignity and value as a person, regardless of you own personal beliefs.

Again this is a basic part of being a decent, adult human.

It is not being decent and human if that erases my lived experience and my own dignity and ability to relate to others.

HTH.

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:43

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:41

It is not being decent and human if that erases my lived experience and my own dignity and ability to relate to others.

HTH.

if that erases my lived experience and my own dignity and ability to relate to others.

how does it do this? Why are you so terrified of trans people?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 14:46

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:41

I don’t think a rape victim should have to address her rapist at all, let alone address them in any particular way.
i think if you rape someone you lose your right to be addressed with any basic dignity and respect by the person you raped.

What about when speaking to someone else about her rapist? Can she say ‘he’ without the lectures you’ve been providing here?

Where is the bar that you lose your right to compel someone else into something they don’t believe in. Rape? Assault? Speaking to someone disrespectfully?

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:46

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:41

I don’t think a rape victim should have to address her rapist at all, let alone address them in any particular way.
i think if you rape someone you lose your right to be addressed with any basic dignity and respect by the person you raped.

But a rapist isn't a rapist until they are convicted of rape.

So how do you approach a trial?

What is the point at which you decide that the person on trial for rape isn't actually a transwomen 'worthy of respect' and falsely accuse compared to being a convicted rapist?

And therein lies your problem in terms of picking and choosing when and where it's 'appropriate'.

This is precisely why I say pronouns aren't about respect. They are about imposing power and control over others.

That needs to be consensual on every level and within every scenario.

Otherwise you will end up getting into a mess over the issue of WHEN you decide that a rapist is actually a rapist rather than someone standing trial for rape (and therefore someone who is still potentially innocent).

Helleofabore · 18/10/2024 14:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I have no axe to grind. I am not transphobic and I am interested in finding equitable solutions so that female people have their needs and rights (actual human rights) rightfully considered.

I am here to discuss issues that I choose. You seem overly involved in trying to present this as having some meaning.

nutmeg7 · 18/10/2024 14:47

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:12

There is no evidence for something innate, some inner essence of the opposite sex called “being trans”. It is not verifiable by any external tests or scans

what does this mean? There are all sorts of medical conditions that can’t be verified by external tests or scans. That says very little about the nature and aetiology of that thing. What can be “verified” by external tests and scans is simply a function of scientific technology.

I am saying that a trans identity is fundamentally a psychiatric condition.

It is not the same condition in an adolescent female who is scared of becoming a woman as it is in a middle aged man who is sexually aroused by imagining himself as a woman. It is also not the same for a boy who is conspicuously feminine from preschool age.

To say they are all innately and unchangeably “trans” is to group different phenomena together and does not help our understanding of why people arrive at the conclusion they are “really” the opposite sex.

I think there is a massive problem with strong sex-stereotypes making people think they cannot be a kind gentle boy or a girl who loves maths and climbing trees (or whatever). We need to expand the breadth of perception of what a woman or a man can be, with a massive overlap, rather than say you must be the opposite sex because you like pink or don’t like cars. Or other regressive nonsense.

99victoria · 18/10/2024 14:48

spannasaurus · 18/10/2024 13:59

Third spaces for gender critical women is my preferred approach
As long as those spaces are female only and make up 51% of all non disabled toilets I'd be more than happy.

Yes, I'm fine with this too
@PiggleToes why do you say that women won't go for this? I have never heard it suggested anywhere - can you link me to what you have read that evidences women are not interested in this option?

GiveMeSpanakopita · 18/10/2024 14:48

Ah, 55 Tufton Street.

Tufton Street is the Pizzagate Conspiracy of the left wing.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:48

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 13:56

So it's NOT transphobic to refuse to use someones pronouns?

not respecting someone else’s pronouns is fundamentally degrading to the dignity and value of that person. It’s a form of intimidation and bullying. Yes it is transphobic.

Not transphobic to say people cannot pick their own treatment whatever a doctor says?

your straw man here is entrenched in transphobia.

Not transphobic to say males should not be in female sport?

Theres a legitimate debate to be had about eligibility for participation in women’s sport. most of the way that this is debated however, which usually involves attacking and bullying trans people and athletes with DSDs , is violently transphobic.

Not transphobic to say males should not be in female changing spaces?

there’s a legitimate debate to be had about how to organise spaces so everyone feels safe. This also includes respecting the dignity , safety, privacy of trans people. Third spaces for gender critical women is my preferred approach. But for some reason gender criticals don’t go for it despite thinking trans people should be fine in a third space…

Edited

not respecting someone else’s pronouns is fundamentally degrading to the dignity and value of that person. It’s a form of intimidation and bullying. Yes it is transphobic.

You are arguing for forced speech here. Essentially, you believe everyone should be forced to pretend that trans women are women and trans men are men, and labelling any non compliance as intimidation and bullying.

I'd be interested to know whether you think there are any limits to this.

For example, if a rape victim is testifying against her rapist in court and he wishes to be referred to as she/her, is she intimidating and bullying him if she refuses? Or is he intimidating and bullying her by trying to force her to do so? Is the court intimidating and bullying her by forcing her to pretend, at risk of not getting the justice she deserves?

Theres a legitimate debate to be had about eligibility for participation in women’s sport. most of the way that this is debated however, which usually involves attacking and bullying trans people and athletes with DSDs , is violently transphobic.

This is highly disingenuous.

Firstly, the position of trans activists is generally that there is no debate about this, and that even wanting to have such a debate is transphobic. That has led to the International Olympic Committee informing us that we all agree that trans women are women in order to justify its decision to take an Olympic spot away from a young female athlete from a developing country and give it to Laurel Hubbard instead. It also led to female college swimmers being forced to compete against Lia Thomas, sometimes missing out on a medal or the opportunity to compete, and forced to strip naked in the locker rooms in the presence of Lia, a fully intact heterosexual male. They were told they had no right to complain and if they did they would risk being kicked off the team and losing their sports scholarships.

Secondly, I am yet to see an argument in favour of letting trans women compete in women's sports. All we've seen is that they can reduce their testosterone levels to below the male range. They have never been required to get their testosterone levels into the female range, and even if they did this wouldn't reverse the advantages of having gone through male puberty. The only argument for them competing as women is on the basis of their gender identity. But a gender identity is an entirely subjective, unprovable, non physical characteristic which most people don't even have and which is completely irrelevant to sport. Nobody is asking female athletes how they identify or whether they agree that identity is a relevant factor for categorising how people compete in sport.

there’s a legitimate debate to be had about how to organise spaces so everyone feels safe. This also includes respecting the dignity , safety, privacy of trans people. Third spaces for gender critical women is my preferred approach. But for some reason gender criticals don’t go for it despite thinking trans people should be fine in a third space…

Again, I would repeat my comments about the disingenuousness of saying "there's a legitimate debate" when the trans activist line had consistently been "there is no debate".

I agree that everyone should have access to a space where their safety and dignity is respected. But the answer isn't a separate space for "gender critical women". Most women don't identify as gender critical or even know what that means, but the overwhelming majority of them don't want penises in their single sex toilets and changing rooms. We shouldn't be treating women who want this as a minority because that results in either no space being provided for them at all, or a totally inadequate space on the grounds that they are a tiny minority, when they aren't. In the case with the Darlington nurses who are suing the NHS, the trans identifying male colleague who has sexually harassed his female colleagues in the women's changing rooms still has free rein of the women's changing rooms, whereas the women are being forced to get changed in a completely inadequate space. Trans people are the ones who have decided that they cannot possibly share these spaces with other members of their own sex. They are the tiny minority. They are the ones who need to campaign for and be given their own spaces, which should be proportionate to the size of the population that they represent. (This means no taking a changing room or toilet facility away from women, giving it to trans people, and then telling women to get changed in a glorified cupboard, or telling disabled people to share their accessible spaces.

The starting point needs to be the assumption that no women actively want to share toilets and changing rooms with trans women, and they should not be forced to, so an alternative solution should be found for trans people if necessary.

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:49

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 14:46

What about when speaking to someone else about her rapist? Can she say ‘he’ without the lectures you’ve been providing here?

Where is the bar that you lose your right to compel someone else into something they don’t believe in. Rape? Assault? Speaking to someone disrespectfully?

It’s simple. You are required to treat people with dignity and respect, expect if they criminally violate you, in which case I don’t think anyone would demand that of you . None of this is specific in any way to trans issues.

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:49

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:43

if that erases my lived experience and my own dignity and ability to relate to others.

how does it do this? Why are you so terrified of trans people?

Edited

Sweetie, the fact you can't comprehend or conceive of this, and how and when this might be an issue, is PRECISELY the point.

You haven't ever considered the possibility that it's not always a neutral thing and that not everyone is good and kind.

And that power dynamics are involved in all kinds of relationships.

I shall merely smile and nod at your naïvety on that one. I have explained at length this concept on MN before.

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:50

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:48

not respecting someone else’s pronouns is fundamentally degrading to the dignity and value of that person. It’s a form of intimidation and bullying. Yes it is transphobic.

You are arguing for forced speech here. Essentially, you believe everyone should be forced to pretend that trans women are women and trans men are men, and labelling any non compliance as intimidation and bullying.

I'd be interested to know whether you think there are any limits to this.

For example, if a rape victim is testifying against her rapist in court and he wishes to be referred to as she/her, is she intimidating and bullying him if she refuses? Or is he intimidating and bullying her by trying to force her to do so? Is the court intimidating and bullying her by forcing her to pretend, at risk of not getting the justice she deserves?

Theres a legitimate debate to be had about eligibility for participation in women’s sport. most of the way that this is debated however, which usually involves attacking and bullying trans people and athletes with DSDs , is violently transphobic.

This is highly disingenuous.

Firstly, the position of trans activists is generally that there is no debate about this, and that even wanting to have such a debate is transphobic. That has led to the International Olympic Committee informing us that we all agree that trans women are women in order to justify its decision to take an Olympic spot away from a young female athlete from a developing country and give it to Laurel Hubbard instead. It also led to female college swimmers being forced to compete against Lia Thomas, sometimes missing out on a medal or the opportunity to compete, and forced to strip naked in the locker rooms in the presence of Lia, a fully intact heterosexual male. They were told they had no right to complain and if they did they would risk being kicked off the team and losing their sports scholarships.

Secondly, I am yet to see an argument in favour of letting trans women compete in women's sports. All we've seen is that they can reduce their testosterone levels to below the male range. They have never been required to get their testosterone levels into the female range, and even if they did this wouldn't reverse the advantages of having gone through male puberty. The only argument for them competing as women is on the basis of their gender identity. But a gender identity is an entirely subjective, unprovable, non physical characteristic which most people don't even have and which is completely irrelevant to sport. Nobody is asking female athletes how they identify or whether they agree that identity is a relevant factor for categorising how people compete in sport.

there’s a legitimate debate to be had about how to organise spaces so everyone feels safe. This also includes respecting the dignity , safety, privacy of trans people. Third spaces for gender critical women is my preferred approach. But for some reason gender criticals don’t go for it despite thinking trans people should be fine in a third space…

Again, I would repeat my comments about the disingenuousness of saying "there's a legitimate debate" when the trans activist line had consistently been "there is no debate".

I agree that everyone should have access to a space where their safety and dignity is respected. But the answer isn't a separate space for "gender critical women". Most women don't identify as gender critical or even know what that means, but the overwhelming majority of them don't want penises in their single sex toilets and changing rooms. We shouldn't be treating women who want this as a minority because that results in either no space being provided for them at all, or a totally inadequate space on the grounds that they are a tiny minority, when they aren't. In the case with the Darlington nurses who are suing the NHS, the trans identifying male colleague who has sexually harassed his female colleagues in the women's changing rooms still has free rein of the women's changing rooms, whereas the women are being forced to get changed in a completely inadequate space. Trans people are the ones who have decided that they cannot possibly share these spaces with other members of their own sex. They are the tiny minority. They are the ones who need to campaign for and be given their own spaces, which should be proportionate to the size of the population that they represent. (This means no taking a changing room or toilet facility away from women, giving it to trans people, and then telling women to get changed in a glorified cupboard, or telling disabled people to share their accessible spaces.

The starting point needs to be the assumption that no women actively want to share toilets and changing rooms with trans women, and they should not be forced to, so an alternative solution should be found for trans people if necessary.

But the answer isn't a separate space for "gender critical women". Most women don't identify as gender critical or even know what that means, but the overwhelming majority of them don't want penises in their single sex toilets and changing rooms.

i think given the political climate we can find language everyone understands. “Having a penis” really won’t cut it though, as plenty of trans women don’t have penises.

DoobleDecker · 18/10/2024 14:50

Curlyboot · 17/10/2024 10:17

You find it interesting the form the attack took?

I find it very amusing. They released crickets due to the silence around trans issues being considered. It’s very witty

I

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:52

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:49

Sweetie, the fact you can't comprehend or conceive of this, and how and when this might be an issue, is PRECISELY the point.

You haven't ever considered the possibility that it's not always a neutral thing and that not everyone is good and kind.

And that power dynamics are involved in all kinds of relationships.

I shall merely smile and nod at your naïvety on that one. I have explained at length this concept on MN before.

You lost me at “sweetie”…

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