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To think that releasing crickets at a gay rights conference, specifically to shut them down, should be considered a homophobic hate crime? Somehow these people are crowdfunding to do it AGAIN

1000 replies

Zahariel · 17/10/2024 09:03

The optics of having to fumigate a hall after gay people used it to speak about their rights being eroded should not be lost on anyone.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13950839/Trans-activists-release-bags-insects-LGB-Alliance-conference.html

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/suspected-trans-rights-activists-disrupt-lgba-conference-with-live-crickets/ar-AA1s9JHH

This is CLERLY A HATE CRIME - yet it's being reported as trans rights activists, not anti gay hate mongers, I can't really understand why not

MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/suspected-trans-rights-activists-disrupt-lgba-conference-with-live-crickets/ar-AA1s9JHH

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:52

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:49

It’s simple. You are required to treat people with dignity and respect, expect if they criminally violate you, in which case I don’t think anyone would demand that of you . None of this is specific in any way to trans issues.

So trans women are women unless they're convicted of rape in which case they were never women to begin with but are actually rapist gender instead? (©Nicola Sturgeon.)

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:52

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:50

But the answer isn't a separate space for "gender critical women". Most women don't identify as gender critical or even know what that means, but the overwhelming majority of them don't want penises in their single sex toilets and changing rooms.

i think given the political climate we can find language everyone understands. “Having a penis” really won’t cut it though, as plenty of trans women don’t have penises.

Edited

'Plenty?'

As in a tiny minority.

Hmm.

Disengenous much?

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:52

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:48

not respecting someone else’s pronouns is fundamentally degrading to the dignity and value of that person. It’s a form of intimidation and bullying. Yes it is transphobic.

You are arguing for forced speech here. Essentially, you believe everyone should be forced to pretend that trans women are women and trans men are men, and labelling any non compliance as intimidation and bullying.

I'd be interested to know whether you think there are any limits to this.

For example, if a rape victim is testifying against her rapist in court and he wishes to be referred to as she/her, is she intimidating and bullying him if she refuses? Or is he intimidating and bullying her by trying to force her to do so? Is the court intimidating and bullying her by forcing her to pretend, at risk of not getting the justice she deserves?

Theres a legitimate debate to be had about eligibility for participation in women’s sport. most of the way that this is debated however, which usually involves attacking and bullying trans people and athletes with DSDs , is violently transphobic.

This is highly disingenuous.

Firstly, the position of trans activists is generally that there is no debate about this, and that even wanting to have such a debate is transphobic. That has led to the International Olympic Committee informing us that we all agree that trans women are women in order to justify its decision to take an Olympic spot away from a young female athlete from a developing country and give it to Laurel Hubbard instead. It also led to female college swimmers being forced to compete against Lia Thomas, sometimes missing out on a medal or the opportunity to compete, and forced to strip naked in the locker rooms in the presence of Lia, a fully intact heterosexual male. They were told they had no right to complain and if they did they would risk being kicked off the team and losing their sports scholarships.

Secondly, I am yet to see an argument in favour of letting trans women compete in women's sports. All we've seen is that they can reduce their testosterone levels to below the male range. They have never been required to get their testosterone levels into the female range, and even if they did this wouldn't reverse the advantages of having gone through male puberty. The only argument for them competing as women is on the basis of their gender identity. But a gender identity is an entirely subjective, unprovable, non physical characteristic which most people don't even have and which is completely irrelevant to sport. Nobody is asking female athletes how they identify or whether they agree that identity is a relevant factor for categorising how people compete in sport.

there’s a legitimate debate to be had about how to organise spaces so everyone feels safe. This also includes respecting the dignity , safety, privacy of trans people. Third spaces for gender critical women is my preferred approach. But for some reason gender criticals don’t go for it despite thinking trans people should be fine in a third space…

Again, I would repeat my comments about the disingenuousness of saying "there's a legitimate debate" when the trans activist line had consistently been "there is no debate".

I agree that everyone should have access to a space where their safety and dignity is respected. But the answer isn't a separate space for "gender critical women". Most women don't identify as gender critical or even know what that means, but the overwhelming majority of them don't want penises in their single sex toilets and changing rooms. We shouldn't be treating women who want this as a minority because that results in either no space being provided for them at all, or a totally inadequate space on the grounds that they are a tiny minority, when they aren't. In the case with the Darlington nurses who are suing the NHS, the trans identifying male colleague who has sexually harassed his female colleagues in the women's changing rooms still has free rein of the women's changing rooms, whereas the women are being forced to get changed in a completely inadequate space. Trans people are the ones who have decided that they cannot possibly share these spaces with other members of their own sex. They are the tiny minority. They are the ones who need to campaign for and be given their own spaces, which should be proportionate to the size of the population that they represent. (This means no taking a changing room or toilet facility away from women, giving it to trans people, and then telling women to get changed in a glorified cupboard, or telling disabled people to share their accessible spaces.

The starting point needs to be the assumption that no women actively want to share toilets and changing rooms with trans women, and they should not be forced to, so an alternative solution should be found for trans people if necessary.

forced speech

😂😂😂

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:53

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:37

i don’t think they should be given charitable status to promote transphobic ideas, no

So you believe that same sex attracted people advocating for their own rights is transphobic and shouldn't be allowed?

And yet you don't see why we think trans ideology is homophobic?

DoobleDecker · 18/10/2024 14:53

I know this is from yesterday, but: “silence around trans issues”

😂😂😂😂😂

oh, don’t, I can’t laugh this hard, it can’t be good for me

silence

around trans issues

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:55

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:53

So you believe that same sex attracted people advocating for their own rights is transphobic and shouldn't be allowed?

And yet you don't see why we think trans ideology is homophobic?

So you believe that same sex attracted people advocating for their own rights is transphobic and shouldnt be allowed?

no I don’t think that:

you (and the LGBA) apparently think that advocating for trans rights is homophobic, and yet you don’t see why you are the LGBA are transphobic. that is the problem we are facing here.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 14:55

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:49

It’s simple. You are required to treat people with dignity and respect, expect if they criminally violate you, in which case I don’t think anyone would demand that of you . None of this is specific in any way to trans issues.

Doesn’t answer the question at all.

You are for enforced pronouns. Except if someone ‘criminally violates you’. What’s the bar when you can refer to someone by their correct pronouns I.e he for a biological man and she for a biological female. Only if they are guilty of committing a crime against you? What about in the run up to that?

What if a transwoman was rude to me, can I call them ‘he’ when retelling the incident to a friend?

This is where the house of cards falls down.

nutmeg7 · 18/10/2024 14:56

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:31

Pronouns are words used to refer to people and to address people .

it is entirely appropriate that you should be asked to address and refer to people using respectful language which is consistent with their dignity and value as a person, regardless of you own personal beliefs.

Again this is a basic part of being a decent, adult human.

We address people with “you”.

Wr talk about ourselves (the only pronouns we can be said to own) as “I”.

We refer to people as “she/he” when talking to a third party. “She/he” are designed to make it clear who we are talking about. That depends on the person talking and the person listening to have a shared language. It doesn’t affect the person being talked about.

“Preferred pronouns” is a nonsense concept. It is really code for “my inner gender identity is male/female/neither”

spannasaurus · 18/10/2024 14:56

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:49

It’s simple. You are required to treat people with dignity and respect, expect if they criminally violate you, in which case I don’t think anyone would demand that of you . None of this is specific in any way to trans issues.

Yes it is. Its trans activists that got the judges equal treatment benchbook changed so that any trans identified person had to be called by their preferred pronouns in court proceedings. This included raped women referring to their male rapists as she.

Thankfully the benchbook has now been amended.

Raspberryripple11 · 18/10/2024 14:56

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/10/2024 13:34

Indeed it must be terribly confusing! If the line is a man is a woman cos he says so then researching health problems in women by using a male body must be eye wateringly difficult.

i wonder if vets research issues that affect cats by researching frogs? Or would they see that that would be inherently fucking pointless? A bit like trying to research women’s health problems by using TW

This is pretty funny because the vast majority of research is actually done in difference species. A lot of human research will start off in isolated cells, then onto mice and rats, occasionally via monkeys until it gets to humans. A big thing I'm trying to encourage is for both male and female mice to be used, most people just use male and end it there. This is a problem that perpetuates through all levels of research, male is the default and women often aren't included in research at all.
But no, my research mainly looks at the role of sex hormones on brain health, especially with regards to the menopause. So currently yes my research is on cis women but that doesn't stop me from respecting the rights of trans women. And certainly the role of artificial hormones (whether through birth control, HRT or gender affirming care), is an interest of mine.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:57

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:55

So you believe that same sex attracted people advocating for their own rights is transphobic and shouldnt be allowed?

no I don’t think that:

you (and the LGBA) apparently think that advocating for trans rights is homophobic, and yet you don’t see why you are the LGBA are transphobic. that is the problem we are facing here.

Edited

No, that's not what they think.

What "trans rights" do you believe they are denying?

To be specific, can you name any rights which you think trans people have/should have, which the LGB Alliance believe trans people should not have?

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:59

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:52

forced speech

😂😂😂

Yes, forced speech. Any thoughts about the rest of my post?

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 14:59

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:52

You lost me at “sweetie”…

Haha well it wasn't as if I expected you to actually engage with the point.

Speaking of which can you engage with the point about when it is the appropriate time to 'de-pronoun' a trans identifying male accused of raped as per my previous point.

At arrest? Once a case goes to the CPS and is approved for trial? At the trial itself? And what happens in the event of being found not guilty? Do you flog yourself as a form of punishment if you 'de-pronouned' too early?

You are very good at failing to engage with points you don't like.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:59

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What if we believe it is offensive to women to refer to male people as she/her? That doing so is not treating women with dignity and respect?

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:59

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 14:59

Yes, forced speech. Any thoughts about the rest of my post?

Tbh I didn’t read it because it began in such a ridiculous manner I didn’t really think it worthy of my time

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 15:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

So what you are saying is that the only way to treat a trans person with respect is to pronouns properly.

As long as you are pronouning it's all a-ok.

See my point about rape trials and depronouning at the applicable time.

The disowning of trans identifying males when they become a hinderance to the purity of the ideology is quite fascinating.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 15:02

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:50

But the answer isn't a separate space for "gender critical women". Most women don't identify as gender critical or even know what that means, but the overwhelming majority of them don't want penises in their single sex toilets and changing rooms.

i think given the political climate we can find language everyone understands. “Having a penis” really won’t cut it though, as plenty of trans women don’t have penises.

Edited

A small number of trans women don't have penises, actually, but that's really neither here nor there. You can tell whether someone is male or female whilst they are fully clothed. You can't tell whether a male person has had his penis removed without performing a genital inspection though, which is why it makes more sense to simply assume for the sake of argument that any male person has one.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 15:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Calling disabled and ethnic minority people offensive terms has no place in society. Its
absolutely wild (and offensive in itself) that you think referring to someone by their correct sex pronouns is on the same par.

It is absolutely absurd yes, you said it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 15:03

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 15:01

So what you are saying is that the only way to treat a trans person with respect is to pronouns properly.

As long as you are pronouning it's all a-ok.

See my point about rape trials and depronouning at the applicable time.

The disowning of trans identifying males when they become a hinderance to the purity of the ideology is quite fascinating.

It's absolutely astonishing, what they are saying. Essentially, we can't say no to these people unless and until they have seriously harmed us, at which point we are permitted to say they're not women but the damage is already done.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 15:04

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 15:01

So what you are saying is that the only way to treat a trans person with respect is to pronouns properly.

As long as you are pronouning it's all a-ok.

See my point about rape trials and depronouning at the applicable time.

The disowning of trans identifying males when they become a hinderance to the purity of the ideology is quite fascinating.

Isn’t it. I had someone tell me that if a trans woman commits a crime then they’re not a ‘proper’ trans person. Make it make sense.

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 15:04

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 15:02

A small number of trans women don't have penises, actually, but that's really neither here nor there. You can tell whether someone is male or female whilst they are fully clothed. You can't tell whether a male person has had his penis removed without performing a genital inspection though, which is why it makes more sense to simply assume for the sake of argument that any male person has one.

You can tell whether someone is male or female whilst they are fully clothed.

That’s fine then. We will have women’s toilets (where we don’t police genitals or presentation), men’s toilets (where we don’t police genitals or presentation), and toilets for females where we judge your gender presentation at the door and if you look “male” we kick you out,

Then we can all decide where to go to the toilet in peace.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 15:05

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 14:59

Tbh I didn’t read it because it began in such a ridiculous manner I didn’t really think it worthy of my time

Translation: "I choose to remain wilfully ignorant of the opposing arguments because deep down I know that my belief system is a load of misogynistic bullshit."

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 18/10/2024 15:06

PiggleToes · 18/10/2024 15:04

You can tell whether someone is male or female whilst they are fully clothed.

That’s fine then. We will have women’s toilets (where we don’t police genitals or presentation), men’s toilets (where we don’t police genitals or presentation), and toilets for females where we judge your gender presentation at the door and if you look “male” we kick you out,

Then we can all decide where to go to the toilet in peace.

Edited

Why can't we have toilets for male people, toilets for female people, and toilets for people who don't want to use the toilets for members of their own biological sex?

Or are you suggesting that we can't trust trans people to respect that rule?

RedToothBrush · 18/10/2024 15:07

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 18/10/2024 15:04

Isn’t it. I had someone tell me that if a trans woman commits a crime then they’re not a ‘proper’ trans person. Make it make sense.

How quickly we shift from trans to 'true trans' when discussing sex offending is quite the thing

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