Thoughts on schools with high SEN population

[Dinoswearunderpants]

Hi

Hoping I don't get flamed here but I visited my first infant school yesterday as DS is due to start school next year.

I did not get a good feel for the school. It's classed as Outstanding but it felt utterly chaotic. It was like a maze and I appreciate the kids will likely just go from their room to the playroom/hall.

The school also said they have a high population of SEN children. This was evident as I saw at least 10 children walking around. They were in and out of the class rooms or doing various other activities. This clearly was disrupting other pupils.

They often had two kids to one adult. The class sizes are already large with three classes of 30 per year.

I appreciate schools have changed drastically since I went but I just didn't get a good feel.

There's one other school locally I'm due to view and that's classed as Good. They had a third less pupils and lower SEN.

I'm just wondering what things I should be looking for please as this is all very new to me.

A school that gets it right for children with additional needs is likely to he doing well for other kids too. Anyway, your child might well end up having additional needs - no way to predict.

I'd go on gut feel rather than stats of SEN pupils. Visit a few more even if they are not ones you particularly think you might send your child to, but then you can have a more rounded opinion.

We moved one of our children in year 5 from a small, 'nurturing', school to a bigger school - but this school has larger classrooms, smaller classes, streams in maths - and with more staff and space they are able to better meet the needs of SEN pupils than a much smaller school.

The reason for schol visits is so you can look around them and see which have a good feel to you and would be a good fit for your DC.

Hoping you don't get flamed for your post, but kids with SEN need education too, and the school will try to support them as best they can.

If your DC is staying their their own classroom, they're going to be less impacted by SEN students wandering the corridors, maybe? They'll also learn how to get along with children different to them.

I would go with the other school.

If you want a smaller school for your child that's fine and your choice. I don't suppose the Ofsted ratings are more important than your general impression. However your thread title doesn't really indicate that, and that will understandably dictate the replies you'll get.

I wouldn’t take any notice of Ofsted for a start. Our local ‘outstanding’ high school is not one I’d send my kids to and the one that apparently ‘needs improving’ is an ex private school that still retains lots of the staff and facilities from its heyday and is the one that everyone is desperate to get their kids into.

I always went for the school that felt right. I just trusted my gut instinct and it's never been wrong. Go and look around all the available schools and the one that you walk away with a 'yes' feeling about, choose that one.

I would also go on gut feel. I’m not sure percentage of SEN pupils really means much. It can be a good thing if the reason there is a high proportion of SEN pupils is that the school has a good reputation for dealing with SEN - it could indicate a nurturing, caring environment. Alternatively, it could indicate a lot of disruption!

One thing I always find really telling is the school behaviour policy - this tends to give a lot away regarding the values and day to day life of the school.

Infant schools often do feel chaotic. It's all the infants that do it. I agree with pp that catering for kids with special needs effectively generally means catering for everyone effectively (for a physical example, isn't it perfectly easy to walk up a wheelchair ramp?).

However it is possible for a school to achieve outstanding at Ofsted some time ago and then change leadership and be quite a different school, so I would check the date on that. I also think if the other school feels better to you, that is key.

I think this a good point. Our large primary school has many SEN pupils but also lots of specialist staff and facilities to accommodate this.

You don't know what needs your child might have, my sons addition needs weren't diagnosed until the end of year 7. He's likely to be among the highest scoring in his year when it's GCSE's.

Equally if the school weren't on top of his needs, he could easily daydream his way through his exams without a prompter!

As a mother of a SEN child, that moved school in year one, if I had a NT child I would rather they go to a school with good SEN provision. My DS' first school thought my DS had behavioural problems. This caused much more distruption to class than his new school that met his needs and recognised he needed Autism and ADHD assessments, and fought for the EHCP needed which meant a much calmer child. SEN children are in every school.

Thank you so much for the replies. It does seem gut feeling is the way forward.

There are two schools within walking distances, the school I viewed was one of them so the other school I will view.

I might need to consider looking further afield. I didn't want to drive to a school but if I have to, then I will.

My DS went to a primary with an excellent reputation for SEND. The outcome is that all the children learn to be kind, accommodating and inclusive alongside learning their academic subjects.

Secondary has been an eye opener with children coming from schools with better reputations using horrible ableist language and bullying behaviour towards the children who are different.

Kind, supportive, inclusive all the way for me.

I agree that a gut feeling is more important than stats when it comes to choosing a school. I went to a school with a specialist hearing impaired unit and a large proportion of SEN students. We had a teaching assistant for every 5 pupils, signers in every lesson, and there were students with 1:1. I had the best experience, it was an inclusive school, I grew up in an environment where disability was not stigmatized. I had the best primary education and when I moved schools aged 10 was a year ahead academically.

It all depends on the teachers in my view. A good teacher can transform a child's school experience

I have children with SEN who have extra support in school, just to be open.

1. Definitely visit both schools. I've been in schools I wouldn't send my kids to in a million years just from the feeling I got when walking round them. So wait till you've been in both as you may know the answer immediately.
2. Class sizes are likely to be similar in both schools. PAN 60 will be two classes of 30 normally. The school as a whole will be smaller but classes will feel the same.
3. SEN inclusive schools offer a lot to all children if they are managing well. And if your child does need any extra support as they go through school, they're in a good place. Larger schools have more space for things like sensory rooms that all children can benefit from.
4. Three SEN kids being properly supported in a class will give a better learning experience for all the children than one SEN kid that isn't.
5. Ofsted really is only one tiny part of the picture, and the difference between Outstanding and Good is really wafer thin, particularly in the new assessment framework.

I'd pick a school with high SEN instances and good support strictures rather than a school with little experience of and/or low SEN.numbers.

Very similar situation for us last year.

Nearest school, 6 mins walk away, 3 form entry, OFSTED Outstanding. Very corporate looking, glossy and smart. High SEN population because they have a specific SEN class as they are big enough to fund that. I know several SEN children who have not been sent to the SEN class because there are too many behaviour issues in the class so well-behaved SEN children have to figure it out in mainstream.

The school we chose, tiny village school, 5 minute drive or approx 40 min walk, OFSTED Good, only 17 in the year group. Loads of outdoor activities, forest school and kitchen garden.

It's worth noting though that high SEN means high diagnosed SEN. At School 1, the curriculum is quite rigid and organised, so SEN children are immediately spotted and diagnosed. At School 2, they are outside in nature a lot in small classes with lots of freedom and a very calm environment, so SEN might not really be noticed as SEN children are already being accommodated by the nature of the school

There's an issue with SEN magnet schools. Warm, nurturing schools with a good reputation for SEN attract more than their fair share of children with SEN. Other schools will say "we're not sure we can meet your child with SEN needs, have you thought of X school?"

The problem is with funding - unless this has change in the ladt few months, since I stopped being a school governor. Schools get a "notional SEN budget" that is meant to support children with SEN, covering those without an EHCP and the first £6k of costs for an EHCP. It is possible to attract so many children with SEN that the £6k x number of EHCPs exceeds that notional funding and you're unable to adequately support children without an EHCP. Meanwhile the schools that deter children with SEN get to keep their notional SEN funding and end up better resourced than they really deserve to be.

@MrsSunshine2b that sounds like a lovely primary and exactly the sort of place I would have chosen for my children at 4. But that environment alone won't be enough for some kids as they get older and their needs emerge, and you also really don't want a kid going to secondary without any knowledge of what additional support they might need if you can possibly help it. We actively decided against sending my child to a similar school when we moved when they were 8 as the school simply couldn't accommodate their needs well enough.

As the parent of a child with complex needs, inclusion doesn't really work for many children ,my son has always gone to a special school, where he is fully included in everything

I know so many kids thigh that have been failed by mainstream
Obviously there is a wide range of SEN and some kids are fine in mainstream
But the whole system needs a,rethink.

It surprises me that you get a choice…

I agree with other PP who states that a school able to cater to SEN children means it’s an inclusive school. They’re more likely to take a holistic approach and look at children’s individuals strength and areas of need. What’s bad about that? How were these children with SEN (who have the same right to an education as everyone else) doing to disrupt others? How do you know the other children weren’t also SEN? You can’t always tell just by looking at a child.

And of course, your child might very well have some SEN themselves, unless of course you’re convinced they’re practically perfect in every way…

Yes, I agree that this is not going to be a long term solution but it may be a reason for more SEN being picked up on at more "corporate" schools where ND children stick out like a sore thumb. In a class of 17 when the children have spent the whole day moving, a child with mild ADHD is unlikely to be struggling so won't be noticed as different, at least in the early years. Maybe by Y4/5 it will be more noticeable as the demands get higher, but it means the overall proportion of SEN will appear lower. It's definitely true that any child with very specific needs might not be adequately supported in a small school as they are unlikely to have the same funding and experience as big schools.

To be honest, no kid with 'mild ADHD' is going to get picked up in any school. But I agree that the more a young child is required to fit a rigid model, the more children who struggle to do that will be apparent.